# Preston Legs



## Paige

I am posting new pictures that I took of Preston last week during a bath.

As you can see his legs are bad, I am still holding out on the surgery. The vet said he would only do it if he had trouble getting around. He does well at home and plays in the backyard everyday. He gets atleast one run like hell session daily. When I take him to the soccer park he has trouble walking, I guess the pavement is harder on him, so I think I'm going to buy him a stroller. He should feel like a king being strolled around while the other two are walking. lol 

I just wanted to show everyone what CD looks like, Maybe the breeders who don't think it's important to health test might feel differently after seeing these pictures. Of couse it doesn't always show up in testing, aleast as a breeder you know you gave your puppy the best start possible. 

In the end, I am glad that I am the one who got him. Me and my family love him dearly and he will get all the care and love he will ever need. Proberly more love than he needs, but he will just have to deal with it.  


Of course Preston is the perfect dog, he doesn't bark, loves to cuddle and friendly to everyone he meets. At soccer if a child sits down to pet him, he will crawl up in there lap. At first the kids like Nigel because he is the little one, but Preston soon becomes the favorite with his sweet and gentle ways.

I didn't know what I was missing until I got my havs.


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## casperkeep

My heart was breaking when I saw him I do not know much about cd but I want you to know that I hope things will work out. I think he will like being pushed in the stroller King Preston!!!!!!


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## Thumper

Paige......:grouphug:

That brought tears to my eyes  I'm so sorry that he has to suffer, but I'm also SO HAPPY that he has YOU and your family. With a gem of a personality and demeanor, you couldn't be luckier!

I, personally.....HIGHLY recommend the stroller. Don't worry about funny looks or being called the crazy dog lady, because it came in SOOO handy, and I know it would really help Preston out. I'm happy with the one I got from Petsmart,

http://www.petsmart.com/product/ind...roller&kw=stroller&parentPage=search&keepsr=1

The "Happy Trails Plus", was the most bang for you buck that I could find at the time. I think it comes in blue, too? Maybe another color somewhere else. But gosh, it would come in SOOO handy at a soccer game, you could keep supplies, sweatshirts, etc. in the bottom basket, and it has 2 drink holders and a key holder. I love it! I need to find more ways to use it!

I think its a great idea, and it would make his like MUCH easier and so much more comfortable.

He's a doll baby. :kiss:

Kara


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## Lina

Paige, that picture of Reece literally brought tears to my eyes. It's really sad that some breeders will not health test knowing that this is a possibility. Preston really is a lucky dog to have found you, just as you are the lucky family who got such a sweetheart as a member of the family. :hug:


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## anneks

I am so sorry! His legs definitely look on the severe side. I am glad he gets around well still. Did you say he is only 3 years old? I saw on emergency vets (animal planet) the surgery one time. They did it on a basset hound that had severe bowing and the after was amazing. They only do one leg at a time of course so that they can still get around but I was surprised by how straight it was after it healed. Maybe Preston can get by without the surgery if he isn't as hard on his legs? The idea of the stroller is a great one.



reece said:


> I didn't know what I was missing until I got my havs.


I totally agree!!! I love my other dogs but Mirabel stole my heart!!


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## lfung5

Paige,
I am so sorry for little preston. Thank goodness he has such a good family to take care of him. It breaks my heart. Does he feel much pain? Now you have a great excuse to buy cute strollers and carriers.


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## Doggie Nut

Paige, I am moved almost to tears looking at dear Preston's legs. It's amazing how well he still gets around! Is there much pain involved? You are the best mommie and I know Preston will get the best care and receive oodles of LOVE! Thanks for helping educate us on CD!!


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## Laurief

Poor little Preston!! I am sure he is quite spoiled by you though! Hopefully it wont get any worse & he will be able to avoid the surgery. I love the idea of the stroller - would he stay in it?


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## Leeann

Thank you Paige for the update on Preston, it’s so nice to hear how he is still getting out for a game of RLH. I like the idea of a stroller that way he can continue to be a part of everything, he is one lucky guy to have such a great mom that cares so much.

If the day comes that he will need surgery please know we will all be right here going through it with you. Hugs to you and your family.:grouphug:


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## Leslie

Paige~ I've got tears, too. But, more importantly, I have huge hugs for you and Preston. :hug: Isn't it wonderful how God chose to give him such a sweet spirit to go w/his disability? I have found it to be that way for many of my special needs students, as well. What a blessing Preston has you for his mommy!

I think the stroller is a great idea. I bet it will make life more comfortable and easier for him. If anyone ever says anything to you about it not being "fair" that Preston gets to ride while the others have to walk. You tell them that "fair" is not everyone getting the same thing; "fair" is everyone getting what they need!


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## marjrc

I think it's great that Preston can still play, run and behave like his usual Hav self. It's reassuring and I agree that you are the best family Preston could have. We all know how much you care for your kids, furry types and otherwise.  

You'll know when it's necessary to do what will help Preston and I agree that the stroller is a great idea. Kara, ever the resourceful one, has some great ideas as to what you can also use the stroller for! Great tips, Kara! Reminds me of when I had to take a wheelchair to Universal (Orlando) one time because we'd walked miles and miles the day before and I was in a lot of pain and couldn't move. With the chair, we could hook on bags, load it up with water bottles, cameras, all kinds of things that no one had to carry anymore AND we got to the front of the line at all the exhibits/rides. Cool! 

Sending many (((((hugs))))) and love, Paige. I wish we could wave a magic wand and make Preston's legs all better again. 

What is his breeder saying/doing about it, if anything?


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## Amy R.

Thank you for posting those photos, Paige. That was courageous, and a useful lesson for everyone. But things have a way of evening out in life, don't they? Because Preston has YOU. What a lucky guy, please give him an extra hug and a belly rub from us. :angel:


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## marbenv

Paige,

That is so sad. Thanks for posting the pictures. That way we all know what CD looks like and why health testing is so important for the breeders to do. I can't remember--was Preston from a rescue situation or do you know his breeder?

I'm so glad that you all love him so much and that he is such a blessing to you.

I agree--if it comes to the point where he needs the surgery, we will all be here for you.

Leslie--
I like what you said about "fair"--so true.

Marsha


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## mckennasedona

Those photos bring tears to my eyes. It's so wonderful that he has you and your family to love him and care for him. He's adorable!!!
We can always hope that breeders work as hard as they can to eliminate problems like this but in the meantime the problems do occur and the pups are just as deserving of compassion, care and love as any "perfect" dog.

Susan
PS- He'll feel like a real king of the hill being able to ride in the stroller while his sibling have to march beside him.  Maybe you could hook their leashes to the front of the stroller so they can pull him or maybe Dawna could make him a royal chariot.


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## Laurief

Susan, that is too funny - now we have to get those cowboys working for a chariot for Preston!!! Wont you be the sight at the soccer games!!!


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## irnfit

Poor Preston. But, he looks very happy in his photos and seems to be none the worse for wear.

When we adopted my German Shep X, we knew he had hip displasia and chose to just leave him be. He never had a problem and even layed down with both legs out behind him. The last year I had him, he had trouble getting up, so I just had to help him. 

I know you will do what is right for Preston's legs when the time comes and he will still be that happy pup in his pictures.


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## Thumper

I just know how much stuff you have to carry around at these games. My boys didn't play soccer, but they played football...and I was always carrying around clothes and drinks, snacks, etc. Jackets, you name it! Of course, moms always get stuck carrying everything! ound: 

They *may* get jealous of the stroller, but I think they can probably sense that something is wrong with Preston. Do they seem to be in tune with that?

Kara


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## Paige

Preston just turned one in July. The vet said best case would be that he would quit limping by then. That after they legs are done growing, the muscles are no longer being pulled the wrong way and it hopefully becomes less painful. He is limping less at the house, but had a really hard time at the park, so I told hubby that I thought it was time for him to get a stroller. You wouldn't leave your handicap child at home because he couldn't walk and Preston is my handicap child. He agreed, he loves the boys as much as me. He's a great human and hav daddy. I love taking the boys whenever I can, it always causes a stir, everybody wants to know what kind of dog is that and are they ALL yours. ound: I try to socialize them as much as possible, let them smell new thing and meet new dogs and people. 

My lab had to have her ACL repaired in both legs. First one was done at 6 months and the other at 1year. She would whine when she would lay down. Preston doesn't whine so I take that as a sign he is not in too much pain.

I think he would stay in the stroller, he pretty much does what I ask of him with no problem. He's such a sweetie. I have often thought that he would make a good therapy dog.

I could even take him to the parks that don't allow dogs, if I had him in a stroller. Can you imagine a park that doesn't allow dogs. It's the bad dog owners that spoil it for the rest of us.


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## Paige

havashadow said:


> . You tell them that "fair" is not everyone getting the same thing; "fair" is everyone getting what they need!


Leslie, I so believe this, and have practice this with my daughters. They have never been jealous of one another. They know they get what they need, and everyone has different needs at different times.

I have talked with the breeder, he was not a rescue. They too are very sad about Preston's situation. They have offered to help pay for the surgery, if I opt to have it done. I did send 
them the updated pictures today, so they can see it first hand. They are good people and never wanted one of there puppies to have this condition. She email me back and said she had tears flowing as she looked at the pictures, that she was going to send them to her husband and get back with me. They have known about it from the beginning, I sent them pictures when I first noticed it and had him x-rayed.

Kara, I don't think the others would get jealous. Reece just goes with the flow and Nigel is always making sure where I am. I about step on him he gets under my feet so much.


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## TnTWalter

Thank you so much Paige for sharing. It is helpful for others to see, especially potential owners.

You have to post pictures when he gets his stroller...and perhaps he needs a crown? LOL.

You're such a good hav-a-mommy!


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## ama0722

Piage,
It is a very sad situation and unfortunate when it happens. I think you are doing what is right avoiding surgery until it is absolutely needed. I have heard you may want to give arthritis supplement to dogs who have limited mobility which may be something you want to look into. We have a rescue havanese that has an injured paw and he can't have surgery either so they are doing physical therapy too-might be something that would help in the future. It is awesome that he is that active though which will help with keeping his weight down. And he can still do a RLH which is amazing and showing his personality.

Hugs,
Amanda & Dora

P.S. Get a big enough stroller so Axl can fit in with her man!


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## MaddiesMom

Paige- Lots of hugs being sent your way. Thank you *so* much for educating everyone about CD. I think my first Hav had it, but 9 years ago, most breeders didn't know what they know today, and I certainly knew nothing. You would only see it if you soaped your dog down, as the full coat will cover alot of abnormalities. I've always thought that Preston is the most stunning looking dog. Its wonderful to hear his personality matches his looks. He has the perfect Mommy to help him through this. I'm glad your breeder is taking this seriously, and I do hope they aren't still using the parents for breeding. I think a stroller would be wonderful for Preston, and I'm sure you'll figure out what is best for him as he matures. Lots of hugs to you both.....


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## dboudreau

I sure hope that breeders and future breeders see those pictures and understand how important it is to do all the health testing that is available, And NOT to breed any dog that has any signs of CD or any other genetic health problem. 

Thank you Paige for sharing the pictures, :grouphug: to your family and Preston.


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## Havtahava

I cringed when I saw those photos, Paige.

I'm glad he is still active, but if he is limping around much, I think you are very good to consider the stroller.

Since you have multiple dogs and other family members, I'll share with you what a bunch of us stroller-users discovered - the four-wheeled strollers take up a lot less room in the car than the versions with three wheels. I guess it is the size of that one wheel in front, but it doesn't fold up quite as compact as a four-wheeled version does.

There is a Hav in the Bay Area that had surgery at 7 months old and it helped her a lot. The surgery itself seems brutal because they have to cut through the whole bone and then you have to keep the dog from excessive activity for a while, but it improved her ability to get around immensely.


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## Paige

Havtahava said:


> I cringed when I saw those photos, Paige.
> 
> I'm glad he is still active, but if he is limping around much, I think you are very good to consider the stroller.
> 
> Since you have multiple dogs and other family members, I'll share with you what a bunch of us stroller-users discovered - the four-wheeled strollers take up a lot less room in the car than the versions with three wheels. I guess it is the size of that one wheel in front, but it doesn't fold up quite as compact as a four-wheeled version does.
> 
> There is a Hav in the Bay Area that had surgery at 7 months old and it helped her a lot. The surgery itself seems brutal because they have to cut through the whole bone and then you have to keep the dog from excessive activity for a while, but it improved her ability to get around immensely.


My vet show me pictures in a medical book he had that showed what they would do. They would cut the curved bone in half and put a rod between both to try to straight his leg. The same would be done on both legs. He said that if it was his dog, (and he said he would take Preston) that he wouldnt' do it unless he was lame, having trouble walking on a daily basis. He's doing fine at home for now. I do give him supplements, and he will be on them for life. He said I need to watch for his elbow to pop out of joint. So I keep him from jumping in the house, outside is another story. He said I should let him play, and I agree. So for now I am waiting, I don't want to cause him more problems.

Thanks for the info about the stroller's, my car is already quite full with three crates, soccer bags, extra kids, chairs ect... so space is important.


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## dschles

Paige--

Preston is so lucky to have you!

Just wanted to give you some stroller tips as I love my dog stroller! I found the best place to get a dog stroller is http://justpetstrollers.com. It was actually recommended to me by someone on this forum when I was shopping for a dog stroller. Lucky for me, their brick and mortar store is local (although that meant I had to pay sales tax). For everyone else, you will find that they have a great selection, great prices (lower than Petsmart), free shipping, and no sales tax for non-Wisconsin residents. I have the three-wheeler by petzip, and it is fairly bulky when folded (takes up a lot of trunk space). But, it has a very smooth ride -- better than the Combi strollers I had for my kids! If you want, you can pick a stroller that would fit all three of your dogs as that might be a convenient option for you at times. The strollers are sorted on the website by capacity.


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## Leeann

OMG I am cringing now, I did not realize the surgery would be like that. This is REALLY educational to us as pet owners as well.
Paige I think you need more tha a hug, I'm going to go ahead and send my boys over to your house to give you lots & lots of kisses.


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## Julie

Thank you for sharing these pictures of Preston.I have wondered about him alot.Of course,he is such a cutie...it is hard not to want to jump through the screen and squeeze him!I never imagined the bowing that severe...I had always thought it just a "more slight curve."Thank you for the info/pictures.I hope all breeders/puppy buyers educate themselves on this condition.Paige,you seem to know alot about your dogs...and it sounds like you have a really good vet too.Trust your own instincts.If Preston is getting around good that's all that matters.He sounds like a total love bucket at the soccer games!I can see where he could draw a crowd.He is a very handsome loving guy!Hugs to you and the boys:grouphug: Special hug for my crush Preston:hug:


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## Sissygirl

It took me this long to post because everytime I went to reply I started crying. So here I am with my tissue in hand trying to tell you how special this little guy must be and how wonderful he has you as his mom.

Isn't it wonderful that he was placed in your home. I know the hurt you must feel as a mom to see your little one in pain and sometimes suffering.

I hope if you have the surgery it will help him tremendously!! I hope your breeders can find out why this happened. It is so wonderful to see the little guy growing and having so much spunk to RLH everyday. He has been given a family to make him feel loved and secure.

Get the doggy stroller and let his hair blow in the wind - he will love it!

I am not familiar with CD but am going right now to learn more about it.

Thanks for sharing.

Marie


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## Havtahava

reece said:


> My vet show me pictures in a medical book he had that showed what they would do. They would cut the curved bone in half and put a rod between both to try to straight his leg. The same would be done on both legs. He said that if it was his dog, (and he said he would take Preston) that he wouldnt' do it unless he was lame, having trouble walking on a daily basis. He's doing fine at home for now. I do give him supplements, and he will be on them for life. He said I need to watch for his elbow to pop out of joint. So I keep him from jumping in the house, outside is another story. He said I should let him play, and I agree. So for now I am waiting, I don't want to cause him more problems.


Interesting that your vet mentioned the elbow because I was going to suggest that you ask him to manually check the patellas when you take Preston in just because he is going to be enduring more stress than a dog without CD.

I totally agree on waiting for surgery unless he needs it. The surgery recovery is very difficult, and as long as you can help him avoid further injury, he might as well go as long as possible, *especially *since he still has so much young dog energy.

I am pretty sure the young Hav bitch here did not have a rod put in - that is new to me, but it makes a lot of sense for supporting the bone & healing time.

By the way, before the young Hav here, I didn't know that the definition of lame is _to limp or walk with difficulty_. I always thought it meant that they couldn't walk at all. So, if Preston starts limping more often, and the vet starts using that term to describe his movement, it is just a technical/medical term. I think your comparison to him being your handicapped one is spot on. He needs some extra accommodations and care to make his life easier, and you are a great HavMommy.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

Paige,

Preston's photos break my heart. I can't imagine how any breeder could look at those pictures and not test for this. It's inexcusable. He is SO lucky to have you and your family! Bless your hearts for giving him such a loving and caring home.

Our Pepper has one leg that is bowed, but it's not nearly as severe. My heart goes out to you. 

A stroller would be so great for Preston! No matter how far/long your outing is, he would be able to enjoy it pain-free. 

Pepper sends hugs :hug: 

Wanda


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## Beamer

Those pictures.. wow.., I cannot even imagine how he can walk with such curved legs?? And this is not noticable under all that fur? Wow... I really have not even looked to much at Beamers legs during bath time.. Think I will during his bath coming up...

Hopefully Preston will not need any surgery and be happy!! 

Ryan


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## Paige

lbkar said:


> OMG I am cringing now, I did not realize the surgery would be like that. This is REALLY educational to us as pet owners as well.
> Paige I think you need more tha a hug, I'm going to go ahead and send my boys over to your house to give you lots & lots of kisses.


You might not want to do that as you would not get those cute boys back


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## Sunnygirl

Wow! I knew that Preston had CD, but I had no idea it was so severe. Thanks for posting those pictures - they're very educational. Nico and Desi's breeder is militant about CD and breeding away from CD. Her first two Havanese (both champions, BTW) had CD and she neutered them and started her breeding program all over again. Seeing the picture you posted, I now understand why. I'm sure Preston will love going on outings in his stroller if it enables him to be out with the rest of the family and not be in pain to do it. He's very lucky to have you!


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## Paige

Thank you all for your well wishes. 

I am glad that you are finding it educational, it was my reason for putting the pictures on here. I don't think it does any good to hide things like this. It needs to be out in the open for everyone to see. The more we know the better we do. Aleast that's what I like to believe.

Now off to the soccer park, but Preston won't be walking, just watching.


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## Havtahava

The Fussy Puppy Gang said:


> I can't imagine how any breeder could look at those pictures and not test for this.


Wanda, unfortunately there are no tests available for us at this time. All we can do is make sure we only breed straight-legged dogs and remove any with curved legs from our breeding programs. That is why there has been so much emphasis on soaped pictures - it's the best way to get a clear look at what is under the hair.

Paige, how are _you_ doing with all of this right now? I know it must be worrisome, but I appreciate you sharing his pictures with us.


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## Havtahava

reece said:


> I am glad that you are finding it educational, it was my reason for putting the pictures on here. I don't think it does any good to hide things like this. It needs to be out in the open for everyone to see. The more we know the better we do.


It _is_ good for everyone to learn. Unfortunately, there are many people who use this kind of information to malign breeders. You can't always predict how a puppy will turn out, and I've heard of a few straight-legged dogs producing CD. Now, if the breeder knows about this and intentionally breeds the parents anyway, then I think they have put themselves in a position to have their names out there as a warning to potential puppy buyers. (I don't think that is the case with your breeder, thankfully.)


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## Paige

Havtahava said:


> It _is_ good for everyone to learn. Unfortunately, there are many people who use this kind of information to malign breeders. You can't always predict how a puppy will turn out, and I've heard of a few straight-legged dogs producing CD. Now, if the breeder knows about this and intentionally breeds the parents anyway, then I think they have put themselves in a position to have their names out there as a warning to potential puppy buyers. (I don't think that is the case with your breeder, thankfully.)


No, I realize that there is no test for this condition. They did not do this knowing, and are as upset about this as me. I haven't asked anything from them, I just wanted to make them aware, so it wouldn't happen again. They are very good, caring people. They did offer to take him back and refund my money, but I wouldn't give Preston back for any amount of money. They have also offered to help pay for the surgery, but I hope that doesn't have to happen either for Preston's sake.


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## Missy

Paige, thank you for posting the pictures as well as the info about the surgery.... Preston is very lucky to have you, Reece and Nigel. I feel so sad that he is disabled as you say--- but happy that he has you. The stroller sounds like a great idea. 

I may have missed this part but am I understanding this correctly, your breeder knows of Preston's CD and is not testing his mother or father? and still breeding? 

Personally I would love to know if Preston's legs werebowed as a puppy or did you only notice it when you first posted. I would like to know because Cash's feet turn out at the ankles and I am wondering if I should have him looked at? Jasper's legs are straight as can be-- so straight - I can barely feel the joints when his legs are straight--- but on Cash the Joints are very pronounced. Since these are my first dogs I have no idea what is normal.

Paige, I can feel your sadness, your anger, and mostly your love in your posts--- Give him an extra belly rub for me. and hugs to you.


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## Paige

Missy, I told the breeders as soon as I found out. They said that there dogs had straight legs and were tested. I don't know if they have breed these two again or not. I would hope not. He was going to contact a university last time I talked to him to see what more he could learn. I can't imagine that they would do that. But there is no test for this. Preston had straight legs when I got him. It was until June that I noticed that he was limping, he was a year old in July. So it was awhile before it showed itself. If Cash's foot is turned I would go have it x-rayed. That is what I did with Preston, told them what I thought he had and that I wanted both legs x-rayed. Let me know what the x-rays show.

That's what I did compared them to Reece's legs. There was a big difference in the two.


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## Olliesmom

It also just broke my heart to see the pix....thankfully you have such a wonderful furbaby and are wonderful furparents. I am amazed how well he gets around and his quality of life! I am so thankful for that and for you.


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## lfung5

Paige,
I have not read this entire thread, so I hope I'm not asking a question that was already asked. Is this condition something that develops with growth? Did Preston have straight legs as a pup, but when he grew this happened or were his legs pretty much like this from day 1?


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## Jane

Paige, 

I am so sorry about Preston's legs. I appreciate your openness and sharing his photos with us. And I'm glad to hear he is able to get around all right and can still do a daily RLH! 

Can I ask you what kinds of supplements your vet recommended that you give him?


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## Melissa Miller

I am so glad you have Preston also. I am VERY curious if the dogs who produced Preston will be bred again. I can not imagine. I know you can't test for this, but it came from somewhere. I may stick this thread so people might find it easier. Like the people who don't think testing is important.


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## Havtahava

Missy said:


> I would like to know because Cash's feet turn out at the ankles and I am wondering if I should have him looked at? Jasper's legs are straight as can be-- so straight - I can barely feel the joints when his legs are straight--- but on Cash the Joints are very pronounced. Since these are my first dogs I have no idea what is normal.


Paige, a lot of straight-legged dogs have turned out feet, which is sometimes called easty-westy feet. It isn't ideal, but it isn't necessarily a sign of CD. ERAS Havanese is now ERAS Havana Silk Dogs, but she still has a lot of good info on Chondrodysplasia posted there. If you click here, you can read the info, but page 2 has some photos to help you know what things are normal and abnormal. When you scroll down to the three dog photos of legs, you can see the white dog on the left has straight legs, but his feet turn out.

It can be difficult to get a good look at your own dog's legs if you try to do it on your own, so if you can get a breeder or someone who can help you position the dog and take a picture straight on with soaped legs, you can usually get a much better look.


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## Melissa Miller

Those are GREAT links Kimberly. I hope she keeps the info up.


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## Havtahava

Me too, Melissa.


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## marbenv

I would also like to know if Preston's parents are going to be used for breeding any longer or if they have been spayed and neutered? That is really the issue at this point. It would not be fair to continue to breed these parents and hopefully he/.she is doing the right thing. Paige, I wish your family and Preston the best care in the future. He sounds like such a sweetheart. I'm glad he has you and your family.


Marsha


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## Missy

Kimberly, thanks for the link- I think Cash may just be easty westy-- but I will keep an eye on him. 

Paige, does Preston seem to be in any pain? poor little guy. He is still so adorable and you can just see his therapeutic personality shine through in the pictures you have posted. good luck--- -I will let you know if we do x-rays on Cash. He did have both legs x-rayed at about 6 months because he sprained his ankle. the only thing she mentioned that was wrong otherwise is that his growth plates hadn't yet closed.


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## Paige

Havtahava said:


> Paige, a lot of straight-legged dogs have turned out feet, which is sometimes called easty-westy feet. It isn't ideal, but it isn't necessarily a sign of CD.QUOTE]
> 
> Kimberly, I never said that easty-westy was a sign of CD, I just said that if the feet your turned I would have them x-rayed. I am by no means a expert on CD. I wish I didn't have to know anything about it. But if I would of ignored the signs, it wouldn't of helped Preston. I think that it is the right thing to get things checked out when we notice something out of place. I wouldn't think having easty-westy feet would be to comfortable for a dog either.
> 
> I can't imagine after seeing Preston pictures that they would still breed his parents, but I really have no control over this. I have very bluntly told them what they should do, how I feel about this and I have kept them posted on his situation and given them pictures.
> 
> As far as supplements go I have him on Glucosamine and Chondroitin. He will be on this for the rest of his life. It is also in the food I feed the boys. There is a good possiblity that he will develop arthritis down the road, so these supplements help with that.


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## marbenv

Paige,

Who were Preston's sire and dam? If people who are looking for a puppy knew that, then at least nobody else would have to buy from them and go through what you are going through. I'm not saying anything bad about your breeders, because I don't know what they did or didn't do, but if they have continued to breed them after you have told them what has happened to Preston, then they are doing the wrong thing and everyone should be protected from buying from them.

Marsha


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## CinnCinn

Paige,
That is heart breaking! I can't even read all the comments, tears. Gosh, I am having trouble with earmites. I feel silly now. I certainly hope this doesn't cause him too much physical trouble or pain. You too! Keep us posted with how he's doing!!


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## ama0722

Is CD something that only happens with short legged dogs? It is obvious when I look at the english bull puppy next door that he has CD or something similar to it or maybe just easty westy. I guess I am having trouble seeing a difference. But I don't know if I have seen taller dogs have this?

Amanda


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## Havtahava

reece said:


> Kimberly, I never said that easty-westy was a sign of CD, I just said that if the feet your turned I would have them x-rayed. .


I'm sorry, Paige. I screwed up. I meant to address that back to Missy (see her quote above my reply). It wasn't intended towards you, and I know you didn't say that. Mea culpa.

Amanda, many breeds purposely breed CD into their dogs and it is fine with them. It just doesn't work for our breed and is a mistake (hopefully) when it occurs.


----------



## Doc

reece said:


> No, I realize that there is no test for this condition. They did not do this knowing, and are as upset about this as me. I haven't asked anything from them, I just wanted to make them aware, so it wouldn't happen again. They are very good, caring people. They did offer to take him back and refund my money, but I wouldn't give Preston back for any amount of money. They have also offered to help pay for the surgery, but I hope that doesn't have to happen either for Preston's sake.


I was wondering if Preston has been on eggs since you got him. (This would have been a PM if I could have found the way to do it...sorry for the public reply.)


----------



## Paige

No, I have three and none are on eggs. Why do you ask?


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## Paige

marbenv said:


> Paige,
> 
> Who were Preston's sire and dam? If people who are looking for a puppy knew that, then at least nobody else would have to buy from them and go through what you are going through. I'm not saying anything bad about your breeders, because I don't know what they did or didn't do, but if they have continued to breed them after you have told them what has happened to Preston, then they are doing the wrong thing and everyone should be protected from buying from them.
> 
> Marsha


I will not be naming names, bashing is not my intention. Education is. My breeder has given me no reason to doubt them. And once again there is no test for this so any dog can be the carrier and it will not be known untill it shows up in one of their offspring and it is reported to the breeder. Just like humans can be carriers of disease that they don't themselves have, but can pass to their children.


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## lfung5

Are eggs bad? All my guys eat eggs! Scudder who is 9 1/2 months has been on them for months, but his legs are still straight.


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## Laurief

Paige, I am a little nervous with this tread. After seeing the pics of Prestons legs, I was looking at Logan face on now that he got his short hair cut & boy his legs didnt look too good. how do you do the soaping pictures? obviously you soap up their legs, but do you hold them up for the pic, or let them stand on the ground? what is the best way, cause I would like to post a pic of Logan. Thanks.
Laurie


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## lfung5

I think my freddie has very slight bowing. Maybe.


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## Leeann

reece said:


> I will not be naming names, bashing is not my intention. Education is. My breeder has given me no reason to doubt them. And once again there is no test for this so any dog can be the carrier and it will not be known untill it shows up in one of their offspring and it is reported to the breeder. Just like humans can be carriers of disease that they don't themselves have, but can pass to their children.


I really agree with Paige on this. I give Paige a lot of credit for coming forward to try and help others. I strongly feel when any of us have a health issue it is so great to try and help educate and support each other. What happens between the breeder and owner should stay between them. We some times get caught up in our emotions and want to point fingers but even the best of the best breeders will eventually run into a health problem at some point, good breeders will do everything they can to prevent it but life is not always 100% good all the time. Our goal as pet owners is to try and educate each other and make sure we use breeders that do all the health tests so we are less likely to end up with a pup that has health issues.


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## Paige

Laurief said:


> Paige, I am a little nervous with this tread. After seeing the pics of Prestons legs, I was looking at Logan face on now that he got his short hair cut & boy his legs didnt look too good. how do you do the soaping pictures? obviously you soap up their legs, but do you hold them up for the pic, or let them stand on the ground? what is the best way, cause I would like to post a pic of Logan. Thanks.
> Laurie[/QUOTE
> 
> Laurie, you have to soap them up and put them on a table to take pictures. If you have real concerns, I would take them to the vet for x-rays. I felt better after I did that, because I like to know exactly what I am dealing with.
> 
> You also have three other you can compare him with. I compared them with Reece's. I saw a big difference. Preston has never been cut and he has tons of hair, so it was not visable until I soaped him.


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## Laurief

Well all three got groomed this week, and they are all in puppy cuts, just Logans is shorter and his legs (to me) look very different. I will try to post a pic over the weekend. He has not been to the vet in a long while, since he was neutered, so if it started recently they would not have caught it. Thanks.


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## Missy

Doc, are eggs good or bad? and what is the theory?


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## Havtahava

Laurie, I will send you instructions on how to soap for the optimal viewing of the legs. Check your PMs.


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## marbenv

Paige,

My intent was not for you to bash your breeder. What I meant was that IF the sire and dam are carriers they should not be bred again. IF they carry the genes for OCD, they should not be bred again. I think it's admirable and great that you are sharing Preston's misfortune with us and what it truly looks like in a very graphic sense. I appreciate your doing this for all of us. I, for one, would not want to purchase a puppy that came from this sire and dam--that is all I was saying. It's a scary thing when we don't know if the parents were fixed or not now that the breeder knows Preston's condition. I agree that what you want to keep private between you and your breeder is your business and I don't see any reason to name the breeder, as these things could happen to the best breeder's in the world. All I am saying is that it is important to know that those dogs aren't still being bred, isn't it? I am not saying that the breeder is BAD or can't continue to breed their other dogs, and I was not suggesting that you call them out on this forum. It would just be reassuring to know that those particular dogs were not still being bred. Am I wrong here for being concerned?

Marsha


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## marbenv

Paige,

After re-reading my first post, I did say that I wouldn't buy from them, so mea culpa--I mispoke and didn't really explain what I was getting at. Sorry.


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## marbenv

Also, hopefully Doc will answer, but eggs are good--the yolks. There is often a deficiency of cholesterol in these dogs, so they need to be supplemented with egg yolks.

Marsha


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## Tom King

To send PM (Private Message) click on the person's name in the heading of their post and select from the menu.

Hope the pup will manage okay and am glad that he belongs to who he does.


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## Havtahava

Linda, Doc will probably want to answer, but here is a past thread with information about eggs.


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## Paige

marbenv said:


> Paige,
> 
> My intent was not for you to bash your breeder. What I meant was that IF the sire and dam are carriers they should not be bred again. IF they carry the genes for OCD, they should not be bred again. I think it's admirable and great that you are sharing Preston's misfortune with us and what it truly looks like in a very graphic sense. I appreciate your doing this for all of us. I, for one, would not want to purchase a puppy that came from this sire and dam--that is all I was saying. It's a scary thing when we don't know if the parents were fixed or not now that the breeder knows Preston's condition. I agree that what you want to keep private between you and your breeder is your business and I don't see any reason to name the breeder, as these things could happen to the best breeder's in the world. All I am saying is that it is important to know that those dogs aren't still being bred, isn't it? I am not saying that the breeder is BAD or can't continue to breed their other dogs, and I was not suggesting that you call them out on this forum. It would just be reassuring to know that those particular dogs were not still being bred. Am I wrong here for being concerned?
> 
> Marsha


Well unless I have the documented proof from their vet that their dogs have been fixed I have no way of knowing for sure. What about all the other dogs with gentic defects, the only way to know would be to make everyone that produces a defected dog list it's name and proof of it being fixed. That will never happen. That is why it is important for people to know what to look for so it can be reported to the breeder. I don't think you are going to get any breeder to start alist on which one of there dogs produce a gentic defect.


----------



## Leslie

Paige~ Do you know if any of the other puppies from his litter have CD, also?


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## marbenv

Paige,

I'm sure that in the real world, you are quite right. There is really no way to really know about anything anyone does and no guarantees of perfect health in pets or humans. It's just sad, when I see poor Preston's little legs.

Thanks for helping to educate all of us.

Marsha


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## Sunnygirl

I feed each of my dogs half an egg yolk daily - I had to agree to do that in the contract with my breeder. I copied the paragraphs below from another thread - this appears to indicate that certain dogs who had been supplemented with egg developed problems when the egg supplementation was stopped.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Why We Feed Eggs.....

Any food that's high in cholesterol will be beneficial, but eggs have the highest concentration of cholesterol by volume.

The next part below is from Diane Klumb about the egg study on Havanese that was done at TAMU.

There has been a lot of information (and misinformation) being passed around recently about supplementing Havanese with eggs (I've even heard it referred to as "the egg cure", which is scary) and it is important that everyone understand the facts, at least insofar as we understand them at this point in time.

In 2003 HEART funded a study called the Havanese 100. (It was funded entirely through private donations, and involved no funds from either HCA or AKC/CHF)
This study followed a smaller informal pilot project which ran for about 6 months on a limited number of dogs.

The purpose of this study was to determine whether many of the health issues in our breed (including cataracts and chondrodysplasia) were related to cholesterol, as they are in many other species, including man.

100+ Havanese were thoroughly assessed (they may well be the most health-tested dogs on the planet!) for all symptoms known to be associated with defects in cholesterol synthesis in other species. 
Owners filled out lengthy assessment forms, and the data was organized by Karon Fowler, who maintains the HEART database. Dr Jim Cushman was the project coordinator for that study.
This collection of symptoms was given the name OS, short for Ockham Syndrome.(A list of these symptoms is available on the HEART website at www.havaneseheart.org )
Some of the dogs in the study had as many as 7 symptoms, and some had none. (The OS-negative dogs were the controls.)

Each dog was given no egg at all for 5 weeks, after which point bloodwork was run, soaped photographs were taken, and assessment forms were filled out.
Each dog was then supplemented with 1 egg yolk per day in addition to their varied diets. (The egg yolk was chosen as a source of dietary cholesterol based on its quantifiable cholesterol "density", palatability, low cost, and availability.)
At the end of the year, the dogs were reassessed, and the data gathered is now being analyzed by Dr Cushman using a sophisticated computer program designed for the purpose. The results will be published.

Now, what happened is this:
A lot of "anecdotal data" from study participants started floating around. Breeders and owners heard that eggs were curing cataracts, eggs were straightening bowed legs, eggs were causing short-legged dogs to achieve normal proportions, and eggs were causing heart murmurs to vanish. Bitches who were fed eggs during pregnancy were producing straight-legged pups even though they themselves were chondrodysplastic.
Based on this anecdotal evidence, breeders started feeding eggs to their dogs with no understanding of the biochemistry behind it, seeing eggs as a "cure" for the problems in the breed.

Eggs are NOT a cure.

Remember, the real purpose of the Havanese 100 was simply to determine whether or not the problems in our breed were related to cholesterol, and the positive benefits seen during the study (some of which mimic the benefits of cholesterol supplementation in children with known genetic defects in cholesterol synthesis) were sufficient to interest Dr Murphy and his team at TAMU to attempt to identify the specific gene(s) responsible in Havanese.

HEART has never recommended that Havanese be fed eggs as a cure or prevention for any of the health issues in our breed. The dogs in the Havanese 100 were carefully monitored in what was a tightly controlled experiment.

The amount of cholesterol these dogs were fed ( 1 yolk per day) is considered to be a "therapeutic" dose, and in terms of ml of cholesterol/kg of bodyweight, is roughly the equivalent of a person eating 12-24 eggs per day, depending on how much they weigh. (This is the amount of cholesterol that children affected with genetic cholesterol disease were given in controlled experiments.)
Although we have observed no obvious ill effects in either the normal or affected dogs anecdotally, the data has not yet been analyzed completely, and it would be irresponsible of HEART to make recommendations to Havanese owners based on the information we have at this time.

What we DO know about how dogs metabolize cholesterol is important, though. 
Cholesterol, which we tend to think of as "bad", is actually critical to life- it is the "cement" that gives every cell in the body its structure. Cholesterol is produced in the liver in a complex series of steps, each one critical to the one which follows it. A genetic "misstep" anywhere in the body's production of cholesterol can have far-reaching consequences for many systems in the body. 
Although an excess of LDL cholesterol in the bloodstream is believed to contribute to heart disease, an insufficiency of cholesterol can be life-threatening. (Richard I Kelley et.al.)

Research done back in the 70s showed that dogs synthesize cholesterol in vivo in direct proportion to the amount of dietary cholesterol they ingest. The more they eat, the less they produce in their own livers. (Genetically normal dogs do not develop arterial plaque, nor do they generally suffer from high serum cholesterol or heart disease as people do.) This ability to regulate cholesterol based on dietary intake is believed to be a result of evolutionary biology- the dog is descended from "stuff or starve" predators.

When "normal" dogs are provided large amounts of dietary cholesterol in their diets, they will produce less in response. When that dietary cholesterol is suddenly reduced or cut off, even a normal dog's body cannot immediately produce enough to meet its cellular needs, and cellular damage can result in the interim, the extent of which is simply unknown at this point.

We DO know that the cells of the lens contain a higher percentage of cholesterol than any other cells in the body- these cells are extremely dynamic, and are constantly renewing themselves. Recently published research has shown that a drop in the cholesterol levels in the cells of the eye of only 30% or so can be sufficient to cause cataracts to form.

We have received some alarming (again, anecdotal) reports of several dogs who have been fed egg at the therapeutic dose developing cataracts when the egg was suddenly removed from the diet, or in the most recent case, when the amount was simply cut in half. We have also had reports of puppies who were raised on egg developing fairly severe chondrodysplasia when they were taken off egg supplementation by the new owner before the growth plates had closed.

At this point, we do not know if these are dogs who had inherited the gene(s) responsible for faulty cholestrol biosynthesis and which were being effectively "masked" by a high-cholesterol diet (much as insulin injections can mask the symptoms of diabetes by providing that which the body cannot produce on its own) or whether these dogs simply could not adjust quickly enough to the drastic biochemical change to meet the immediate cellular need for cholesterol in both eye and bone tissue.(Cholesterol has been proven to be essential to normal bone growth.) Several of the affected dogs display other symptoms of OS, while one is phenotypically normal, with two phenotypically normal parents.
The answers will NOT come from speculation on our part, but from the genetic work being done right now in Dr Murphy's genetics lab, as all these dogs have DNA in the study.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the dogs in the study developed cataracts while being supplemented with the therapeutic dose of cholesterol, and some (not all) of the affected dogs in the study actually showed significant regression of cataracts by CERF exam after supplementation. 
What does all this mean to the concerned Hav owner?

If one is feeding egg, it is probably best not to suddenly withdraw the egg from the diet, based on what has been reported at this point. If one places a dog who is being supplemented with egg, it is important to explain to the new owner that suddenly withdrawing the egg may have negative consequences.

Above and beyond that, the answers are not simple, and the problems in our breed will need to be solved at the genetic level.


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## Paige

havashadow said:


> Paige~ Do you know if any of the other puppies from his litter have CD, also?


The last time I talked to them no one else had reported any problems. I think with the havanese having so much fur that it is hard to spot. My vet also said that alot of cases stop limping once the leg quits growing, so they might not know what they are dealing with. If you saw Preston playing with my other two boys you would never believe his legs look the way they do.


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## JASHavanese

The pictures are heartbreaking but I do have a suggestion. I saw someone's pictures of their dog's legs and they were similar. They gave their hav a lot of egg yolks and I'm trying to remember how many a day. I think it was 3 yolks a day. They have pictures of the front legs taken over time and as the months went on, the legs straightened. I'd give that a try and see if it helps.
This thread is interesting for a couple of reasons. One is that you didn't see the curving start until he was almost a year old. Breeders normally soap the sire and dam before breeding to check the legs and make sure they aren't bowed. Then they soap the puppies to make sure the legs are straight. Were you shown pictures of the soaped parents? I have soaps of my dogs on my website because I feel it's important information for puppy buyers.
I'm wondering if the cd this dog has is environmental because it showed itself so late. I've seen pictures of puppies with cd and it showed when they were just weeks old. 
It won't do any good to say health test, health test, health test, because right now the best tool we have for cd is our eyes with soaped pictures. I understand they're working on an xray that can be listed on the OFA website to show you if the parents have bowed or straight legs, or to what degree, as I believe they're not using a pass fail system but a rating system instead. 
This is a really emotional subject and understandably so. It's easy to see how high the emotions run reading this thread but naming the breeder isn't a good idea. If this breeder has bred 20 dogs and all except one has straight legs, do they sputer the dogs? I probably would, and a few years from now we'll probably find that would have been the wrong thing to do.
Up until a couple of months ago we weren't provided with the results of the 2006 TAMU study and had no clue that environmental issues could cause cd. A past president of the HCA got tired of the secrecy and went to Dr Murphy and got the report directly from him so this is all new (except to those Dr Murphy reported to) to us. You'll still find many websites with erroneous information about the heredity factor of cd which is another reason this subject is so high charged emotionally.
We have pieces of the puzzle, but not the full picture. Hopefully soon we'll have a lot more information, but I don't think cd will ever be eradicated in our breed if the environment plays a part in it.


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## JASHavanese

Sunnygirl said:


> Why We Feed Eggs.....
> 
> The next part below is from Diane Klumb about the egg study on Havanese that was done at TAMU.
> In 2003 HEART funded a study called the Havanese 100. (It was funded entirely through private donations, and involved no funds from either HCA or AKC/CHF)Above and beyond that, the answers are not simple, and the problems in our breed will need to be solved at the genetic level.


There's another reason this subject is so highly charged. That information is 4 years old and we've learned since that it's not going to be only solved at the genetic level and the environment plays a part in cd. 
Also, the HCA donated a fortune to this study.


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## marbenv

The TAMU study has been published in The Journal of Heredity. I can give you the link if anyone is interested.


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## Thumper

JASHavanese said:


> There's another reason this subject is so highly charged. That information is 4 years old and we've learned since that it's not going to be only solved at the genetic level and the environment plays a part in cd.
> Also, the HCA donated a fortune to this study.


Why would they not credit the HCA for their donation? That is odd.

Kara


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## whitBmom

Paige, I am so sorry about Preston's condition. Hugs to you both. :grouphug: As others have mentioned here, Preston is very fortunate to have such a loving family that will stick by him and love him. You have a great big heart, and if ever you need to vent, I am always here to offer my support.


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## Poornima

Paige,
It is really sad to read about Preston. He is lucky to have you. Thanks for sharing your predicament as it is definitely educating first time puppy owners like me. It is wonderful that knowledgeable and generous members of this forum are here to help and support all of us as we nurture and attend to the needs of our loving and devoted furbabies. 

Jan, what environmental factors could cause CD? 

Best,
Poornima


----------



## JASHavanese

marbenv said:


> The TAMU study has been published in The Journal of Heredity. I can give you the link if anyone is interested.


It costs money to get into that website. Most of us have the report....just ask for it.


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## JASHavanese

Benji Boy said:


> Paige,
> It is really sad to read about Preston. He is lucky to have you. Thanks for sharing your predicament as it is definitely educating first time puppy owners like me. It is wonderful that knowledgeable and generous members of this forum are here to help and support all of us as we nurture and attend to the needs of our loving and devoted furbabies.
> 
> Jan, what environmental factors could cause CD?
> 
> Best,
> Poornima


I'd love to tell you but I don't know. I can guess that jumping, hard play, injury, etc are a part of it.


----------



## Paige

I didn't notice it until he started limping, I'm sure it started before that. No I didn't get soaped pictures. His hair was shorter than and I didn't notice anything. If his legs were bad that early, I would think he would of started limping sooner. The vet said it could happen from them jumping off something when young but since it was so bad in both legs he felt it was gentic. I will talk to my vet about the eggs.


----------



## JASHavanese

reece said:


> I didn't notice it until he started limping, I'm sure it started before that. No I didn't get soaped pictures. His hair was shorter than and I didn't notice anything. If his legs were bad that early, I would think he would of started limping sooner. The vet said it could happen from them jumping off something when young but since it was so bad in both legs he felt it was gentic. I will talk to my vet about the eggs.


Your vet would probably be the last person to talk to about eggs though. Many vets haven't even seen a havanese and don't know much about them. Talk to breeders instead. I personally don't feed egg so I'm not any help with it. It's my feeling that eggs might mask something and if it's there, I want to know it. Who is to say that I'm right though? And I do tell my puppy buyers to feed a yolk a day because we don't know if it's right or wrong and I'd rather err on the side of caution. There is nothing definite about this yet other than egg yolk (cholesterol) is beneficial in helping dogs with issues like yours has.


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## juliav

Paige,

It is so very sad to see the pics of Preston's legs. I am glad to hear that he still has daily RLH sessions and is able to keep up with the rest of the gang. He is really lucky to have such a wonderful mommy.

Thanks again for sharing with us.


----------



## Tom King

quote from Kara: "Why would they not credit the HCA for their donation? That is odd." talking about the Hav 100 Study

The Hav 100 Study was just the beginning study of all the testing done before Texas A&M was involved and was done with private funding.


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## Thumper

Oh, I see.

Thanks Tom! I was hoping there wasnt' alot of animosity still floating around.

Kara


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## JASHavanese

Tom King said:


> quote from Kara: "Why would they not credit the HCA for their donation? That is odd." talking about the Hav 100 Study
> 
> The Hav 100 Study was just the beginning study of all the testing done at Texas A&M and was done with private funding.


Here is who was given credit on the TAMU study that was published recently.
ALISON N. STARR,THOMAS R. FAMULA,NATHAN J. MARKWARD,JOANNE V. BALDWIN,KARON D. FOWLER, 
DIANE E. KLUMB,NANCY L. SIMPSON, AND KEITH E. MURPHY


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## Havtahava

JASHavanese said:


> Here is who was given credit on the TAMU study that was published recently.
> ALISON N. STARR,THOMAS R. FAMULA,NATHAN J. MARKWARD,JOANNE V. BALDWIN,KARON D. FOWLER,
> DIANE E. KLUMB,NANCY L. SIMPSON, AND KEITH E. MURPHY


Actually, those names are listed on the peer report. It says that Starr & Murphy represent Texas A&M University, Famula represents UC Davis, Markward represents Pennington Biomedical Research Center, and HEART is represented by Baldwin, Fowler, Klumb and Simpson.

Doc can correct me if I got the "representation" part wrong, but it doesn't say that those names were part of the study, just that the peer report was compiled from those four organizational sources.


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## Tom King

I went back and edited my previous post. As I remember it, the Hav 100 Study was before the involvement with Texas A&M University(what everyone refers to as TAMU).


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## Tom King

quote: "I was hoping there wasnt' alot of animosity still floating around.

Kara"

Unfortunately, there is. There are still breeders who refuse to show soaped pictures and even those who claim there is no CD in the breed.


----------



## dboudreau

ama0722 said:


> Is CD something that only happens with short legged dogs? It is obvious when I look at the english bull puppy next door that he has CD or something similar to it or maybe just easty westy. I guess I am having trouble seeing a difference. But I don't know if I have seen taller dogs have this?
> 
> Amanda


On the bottom of this article, are pictures of a GSD with CD.

http://www.dogstuff.info/osteochondrodysplasias_lanting.html


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## Greg

Tom King said:


> I went back and edited my previous post. As I remember it, the Hav 100 Study was before the involvement with Texas A&M University(what everyone refers to as TAMU).


I think you are correct here Tom. As I remember it, the Hav 100 came first..........and then TAMU came on the scene. Now I might be wrong but from what I understood the HCA, AKC & CHF didn't contribute to the Hav 100 Study.


----------



## Greg

Thumperlove said:


> Why would they not credit the HCA for their donation? That is odd.
> 
> Kara


Kara,

The HCA donated the money to HEART. HEART funded the TAMU study. So HEART published a list of contributors. Likewise, when the article was published TAMU named HEART. Since the HCA didn't fund TAMU they weren't named.


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## JASHavanese

Greg said:


> I think you are correct here Tom. As I remember it, the Hav 100 came first..........and then TAMU came on the scene. Now I might be wrong but from what I understood the HCA, AKC & CHF didn't contribute to the Hav 100 Study.


There's no reason for AKC to contribute. The hav 100 study wouldn't have come about if not for the dogs from havanese owners, many who were in the HCA. 
HEART gets credit in the peer review, and while the HCA contributed thousands and thousands of dollars, nowhere are they credited.
If you want to get really specific, here are the credits.
From the Department of Pathobiology, College of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences, Texas A&M University,
College Station, TX 77843-4467 (Starr and Murphy); the Department of Animal Science, University of California, Davis,
CA 95616-8521 (Famula); the Department of Genetic Epidemiology, Pennington Biomedical Research Center,
Baton Rouge, LA 70808 (Markward); and H.E.A.R.T. Goochland, VA 23063 (Baldwin, Fowler, Klumb,
and Simpson).


----------



## Greg

I'm probably lost here. Why would the HCA be credited for the TAMU study?


----------



## Paige

Greg said:


> I'm probably lost here. Why would the HCA be credited for the TAMU study?


:frusty: :boxing: :rant: :fencing: :boink: :ballchain: :violin: :argue:

How does any of this help stop CD in the havanese, isn't that the real purpose in all of this.


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## Greg

Paige,

That's an excellent point.


----------



## Melissa Miller

Tom King said:


> Unfortunately, there is. There are still breeders who refuse to show soaped pictures and even those who claim there is no CD in the breed.


To me this is INSANE. I know its true, but I don't get it. If someone wanted to see soaps, why would they not show it? I know some people think their dogs might be misrepresented, but we know the difference between legs like Preston, and one who is cold and wet and leaning.

Its so unfortunate.

I also agree with Paige, and the argument about who gets credit for what with TAMU or who they report to etc... is not the point, its about the dogs and what we can accomplish. Hopefully this doesn't get turned into another TAMU debate and we concentrate on the purpose of Paige's post, to educate people what IS out there.


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## Melissa Miller

Tom.... if you want to quote... click the quote button on the post you are responding to. A reply box will pop up. You can delete anything in their post that you are not responding to as long as you do not delete the words in the bracket that are at the beginning in the end.

The bracket part you dont want to delete at the end and beginning, looks something like this.


Thumperlove said:


> You can delete any parts in between.


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## JASHavanese

Melissa Miller said:


> To me this is INSANE. I know its true, but I don't get it. If someone wanted to see soaps, why would they not show it? I know some people think their dogs might be misrepresented, but we know the difference between legs like Preston, and one who is cold and wet and leaning.
> 
> .


When I was looking at different studs for Bandit, almost everyone was great at sending soaps. There was one person who I had to ask several times for soaps and when I saw them, I understood why they were reluctant to send them to me but the stud might have been leaning or not set up right. It was the fact that I had to keep asking for soaps that put me off. If we didn't have good communication at that point then I felt we never would so I moved on in my search.


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## marjrc

It seems hard to stay on topic in threads such as these where emotions run high, and I agree with you, Paige. You are right not to slam the breeders. After all, there is no real way of proving they will or won't breed the sire and/or the dam. The best you can do is take their word for it and since YOU are the one with the relationship with these breeders, then you are the one to communicate your concerns with them. 

The rest of us need to know to ask for soaped pictures of both parents of potential puppies we want to have. Of course, there's no guarantee the pics will even be of the parents, but you can't drive yourself insane worrying about it!

I asked for soaped pictures when considering getting Ricky and was told it was not necessary, that his breeder "just knew" her dogs' legs were always straight, just from checking them with her hands. Their pups were always in great health and had great legs according to them. Hmmmmm...... Obviously, that is so NOT possible without x-rays, soaped pictures and a long enough history of breeding to know, but I took it all, hook, line and sinker and still bought our boy. Touch wood, so far no problems, but he's still a babe at 14 months. I trusted my gut, so we'll just have to hope I am right! No, this is NOT a recommendation for anyone to do the same!! lol :frusty: 


I am basically taking chances just because I wanted Ricky so badly. Live and learn, eh? Like Paige has said, this is a learning experience for all of us and it allows us all to look at our own pups and any future ones with a much more educated eye and less with our very gullible hearts! lol Anyway, until there is a 'test' for CD, we have to trust soaped pics and x-rays as well as find out the health history of all pups produced by the breeders. 

"Once you know better, you do better"


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## marbenv

Marj,

You are so right. And that is why this forum is invaluable for information on what to ask and what to see. I had a similar experience with one breeder, who said that she had never had any problems with her dogs. I also believed it because I didn't know enough not to at the time. Thankfully, we were not ready to get a puppy yet (or so I thought ), so I told her I would check back with her later. She was nice and convenient to me, that was my criteria!! DUH!! In the meantime, I found this forum and learned what to look for and learned not to be afraid to ask questions. 

Marsha


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## Thumper

Sorry!

I didn't realize that was a loaded question!  Whoops.

Kara


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## MagicLady

First of all I have to say, even though I have seen pictures of CD dogs before, I was saddened and shocked at the extent of the problem with poor little Preston. I use a carriage for McGee sometimes and he likes it so I'm sure Preston will get used to it. I agree with all the others that he is a lucky dog to have you for his Pawrents! Good luck to you all.

Also, I have been reading the threads and have to comment on what is being told to you here. I guess anyone can take anything and twist it to their liking. 

My advice to you is to get the Hereditary Evaluation of Multiple Developmental Abnormalities in the Havanese Dog Breed, published in the Journal of Heredity Advance Access published July 9, 2007 and 1st delivered at the 3rd International Conference on the Advances in Canine and Feline Genomics, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis, CA, August 3-5, 2006. (I have a copy and will email it in PDF if you want)

Make up your own minds....but here is my take on the comments that have been floating around here...

From the pages of the Report....Page 7
FUNDING 
Funding for this study was provided by H.E.A.R.T, individual members of the Havanese Club of American, and the Canine Health Foundation.
So..NOT TRUE that HCA was not mentioned.

Please give ALL the information, not just the part you want people to know.

Also:
said....

Up until a couple of months ago we weren't provided with the results of the 2006 TAMU study and had no clue that environmental issues could cause cd. A past president of the HCA got tired of the secrecy and went to Dr Murphy and got the report directly from him so this is all new (except to those Dr Murphy reported to) to us. You'll still find many websites with erroneous information about the heredity factor of cd which is another reason this subject is so high charged emotionally.
We have pieces of the puzzle, but not the full picture. Hopefully soon we'll have a lot more information, but I don't think cd will ever be eradicated in our breed if the environment plays a part in it.

The truth is environment does not play any siginificant part:
If you read the study, and I have, the final summary states and I quote:

"The data presented herein establish the disease in the Havanese as an inherited contiditon."

The numbers given are .36...that is 36%, that is over 1/3. They also say if the number of dogs is increased they would expect the percentage to go up...NOT down as someone reported. It is hoped over time, if breeders are very careful and selective, the numbers will go down because straight leg dogs will be used to breed and not dogs with bowed legs or who produce bowed legs.

Thanks for listening. Please use your own eyes and read the report for yourselves. Don't just take someone's word for it. Because they are not giving you the whole story.

Carol


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## Julie

I want to know why this started out about Preston's legs and trying to help him,but then went to arguments about some darn study no one cares about that isn't a breeder?Doc came on here and posted about eggs.......I want to know for Paige and Preston--------should she feed him eggs?Whole or just whites?How many?I want to know!How can you sit on your hands and have knowledge you are not sharing with this pet owner?:rant:I'm sorry if I "overspoke" or mis-spoke---but darn it---Help Paige and Preston.Thank you.eace:


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## Thumper

Julie said:


> Doc came on here and posted about eggs.......I want to know for Paige and Preston--------should she feed him eggs?Whole or just whites?How many?I want to know!How can you sit on your hands and have knowledge you are not sharing with this pet owner?:rant:I'm sorry if I "overspoke" or mis-spoke---but darn it---Help Paige and Preston.Thank you.eace:


YES! PLEASE someone answer this if you have the knowledge from the study!

I thought the study was brought up to HELP Preston. Why is any information that may HELP him being witheld? I don't get it.

People sure show up to throw mud.......but why not help Preston?????

Kara


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## MagicLady

You are right about it being about Preston. Unfortunately, beside what is being done and a possible operation that could be of some help, there is not much you can do.

At one time people thought that EGGS, egg yolks, could possibly be a cure for CD (bowed legs), but studies have not shown any connection. Some owners, however, still swear that feeding egg yolks have contributed to improvements in their dogs. It could be worth a shot to feed him one egg yolk a day if you want to give it a try.

There are several other threads and links on here during this discussion concerning feeding egg yolks and the study that was done. I think if you go back over the comments you will find them.

The reason this discussion is transgressing to a study that was done is so others will be aware that they should be buying...yes...even PET puppies from reputable breeders who do extensive health testing and provide soaped pictures of their dogs. Otherwise, other owners will end up with a puppy with heart breaking health problems. This study and it's results should be of concern and interest to all owners, not just breeders.

Carol


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## Greg

Julie said:


> I want to know why this started out about Preston's legs and trying to help him,but then went to arguments about some darn study no one cares about that isn't a breeder?Doc came on here and posted about eggs.......I want to know for Paige and Preston--------should she feed him eggs?Whole or just whites?How many?I want to know!How can you sit on your hands and have knowledge you are not sharing with this pet owner?:rant:I'm sorry if I "overspoke" or mis-spoke---but darn it---Help Paige and Preston.Thank you.eace:


Julie

She should feed him eggs. If he can take the whites without problems then he should eat the whole egg. It won't cure Preston's legs, but it may help. One of the theories still being worked on is that a lack of cholestoral may be one of those environmental factors.

So feed the eggs.


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## Julie

Thank you Carol and Greg!:hug:


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## Julie

Oh,I see this egg question was answered on another thread-----by you Greg.Thanks!Sorry I had missed it.......

The general consensus is though---the egg study showed no conclusive help one way or another correct?I started feeding egg when I first got Quince--but eventually quit.....I was pretty sure this was how it was left on another egg feeding thread from a long time ago....I just wanted to make sure I'm not missing any "new" news!:dance:


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## Paige

I was shown pictures of a havanese with bowed legs, not as bad as Preston's. They gave this dog a yolk a day and I saw improvement. So I would suggest anyone who has a havanese with bowing or feet turning, eggs couldn't hurt. I am going to only give the york only, I don't want to risk him having problems whith the white, and then refusing to eat it. I will be giving them for the rest of his life. My other two boys are also on them, but there legs are straight.


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## SMARTY

Paige, please forgive my tardiness in posting to this thread, I am just catching up for the past week and thought this might be a sensitive one. I am so sorry about Preston’s legs. It is heart breaking to see how bad they have become. 

A stroller when on pavement will probably be a good idea. I have a friend who is a little person with severe bowed legs. He says if he spends long periods of time on hard surfaces he has more pain that at other times. The hard concussions are the main problem with his joints. So Preston having a chariot would probably be a good idea for going to the park, once there he can play like with the other boys.


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## Greg

Julie said:


> Oh,I see this egg question was answered on another thread-----by you Greg.Thanks!Sorry I had missed it.......
> 
> The general consensus is though---the egg study showed no conclusive help one way or another correct?I started feeding egg when I first got Quince--but eventually quit.....I was pretty sure this was how it was left on another egg feeding thread from a long time ago....I just wanted to make sure I'm not missing any "new" news!:dance:


The egg study showed anecdotal evidence of helping. There are people who swear by them. So it couldn't hurt.


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## Julie

Thanks Greg-------do you see any other benefit to it too?Like skin/coat etc?Originally I was to feed 1 egg a day..would that be the same?Or too much egg?Do you have a suggestion?Thanks in advance..


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## Greg

i've fed my dogs egg yolks for years now. In fact there are 3 dogs in my house that have never had a day in their life without an egg yolk of some kind.

I can't say what it does to help. I do know of a dog that was abruptly taken off eggs and developed a cataract. I don't know if it was because of the eggs though...........although it doesn't come from a line with cataract problems.

Here's what I tell my puppy buyers.

Your puppy has been on eggs its entire life. I encourage you to continue this practice. If you decide you do not want your pup on eggs, please take them off eggs very slowly.


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## Julie

Well Thanks---That's good advice.I wish I wouldn't have quit feeding the egg now...darn it!Doesn't sound like it hurts any....that's for sure.


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## Havtahava

SMARTY said:


> Paige, please forgive my tardiness in posting to this thread, I am just catching up for the past week and thought this might be a sensitive one. I am so sorry about Preston's legs. It is heart breaking to see how bad they have become.
> 
> A stroller when on pavement will probably be a good idea. I have a friend who is a little person with severe bowed legs. He says if he spends long periods of time on hard surfaces he has more pain that at other times. The hard concussions are the main problem with his joints. So Preston having a chariot would probably be a good idea for going to the park, once there he can play like with the other boys.


Sandi said a lot of what I was thinking when I was outside doing some yardwork this morning.

I was thinking of Preston and other dogs that have CD. In fact, there are many breeds that have purposely had CD bred into them. I know the ancient monks in China purposely bred the Pekingese dogs with the short stubby legs so they wouldn't wander far from the monasteries, castles, etc. They wanted a dog that physically could not wander, so they bred a structure that wouldn't be condusive to a lot of activity. It worked for them. The short bowed legs _do_ limit their activity, which was exactly what they wanted. Havanese are generally very ambitious, energetic and playful dogs and CD will probably just limit their extent of activity, so the stroller will allow Preston to still get out with his family while the other two get to expend more of their energy.


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## susaneckert

Paige I know how you feel Yoda legs are the same way it is heart breaking I know. My prayers are with you and I hope he will not be in pain. As of now Yoda is not in pain thank god!!!! I should take a pic of his legs


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## Kathy

Missy said:


> I may have missed this part but am I understanding this correctly, your breeder knows of Preston's CD and is not testing his mother or father? and still breeding?


Thank goodness Preston has a mommy like you Paige. You see the best in him no matter what "disability" he might have. When our neezers hurt, we hurt, just like with our human children. I feel your pain and also share your joy of the love Preston has given to you. You have a "special" guy there Paige, as you know.

Havanese are known to like "high" places, (like tops of couches or chairs) but the negative to that is they like to also get down from those "high" places by themselves, which when they are a young puppy growing, can do damage to their bones when they jump off the furniture.

Missy, there isn't any test available to know if a dog or bitch would produce a puppy that could develope CD. All we can do is breed straight to straight, which is what Preston's breeder said they did. It sounds like the breeders are standing behind the puppy they produced, that in my book is saying a lot.


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## Kathy

reece said:


> I will not be naming names, bashing is not my intention. Education is. My breeder has given me no reason to doubt them. And once again there is no test for this so any dog can be the carrier and it will not be known untill it shows up in one of their offspring and it is reported to the breeder. Just like humans can be carriers of disease that they don't themselves have, but can pass to their children.


THANK YOU Paige, that is the right attitude. A "witch hunt" to know who the breeder was isn't going to make Preston better. It sounded like to me, that the breeder wants to do the right thing, that is all that anyone could ask for. I am sure it wasn't done on purpose.


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## susaneckert

Has Preston slow down at all from the CD? I know Yoda has he will have his moments where he runs threw the house really fast but it dont last very long Yoda is only 16 months now he would normally have more engery but these days he has slow down alot.Even with him be cut down you can still see his legs bow real bad


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## Beamer

Susan,
Nice to have you back on the forum!
Would you be able to post soaped pictures of Yoda's legs?

Thanks!
Ryan


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## susaneckert

Ryan I will try to do that When I had them in my pc my pc crash so I will have to take some more. I will get his legs just wet today and take a picture of them . You can see it with out being wet too its sad I will once one of the grandbabys gos to sleep LOL


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## susaneckert

I didnt get a change to take a picture of Yodas leggs as of yet. When I get back homenext week I will do it for sure I know he will be due for a bath.When yoda walks his ankel bunkle its so sad to see him like that. When I first bought him I was planing on showing him and do lots of different classes . Now he is just our couch potato buddy.He go threw this running stage off and on with our little kitten.Its so fun to watch him playing with the kitten.She is a lilac simese and a Snow Beagle so sweet.


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## havanesebyha

Paige,

You are such a wonderful mommy to Preston. I was thinking about his legs and do you think you could learn how to do dog massage and this would help him and with the pain? I am thinking of taking a course in dog massage and I would think this could help him a lot for time being before you go the surgery way. Bless his little heart ~ what a sweet little guy for not complaining.


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## Laurief

I too want to post a pic of Logan's legs as I question if he has this, I will try to get them out this week.


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## Greg

Many times when two straight legged dogs produce a CD pup, you can look back to a grandparent and find CD. For one, I don't think the pair should be rebred, and I'd also investigate the lines to see if I could determine where it came from. 

There isn't a test for CD yet, but that doesn't absolve a breeder from breeding straight legged dogs and producing straight legged puppies. For many it's a learning experience, but you still have to stop doing what you are doing and do something else if you produce CD in a pup.


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## susaneckert

Here is Yoda legs from a distance yet and dry you can see how bowed they are its so sad


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## Lina

Susan, that is so sad that Yoda's legs are so bowed. Does he get around ok or is it very painful for him? You should look into getting a stroller for him like Reece mentioned she was going to do for Preston.


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## susaneckert

He is doing fine really that is why we have stairs for him to get on the bed .It does not seem to hurt him I keep a very close eye on him I watch him on his jumping he dont run real fast any more. It is sad to see


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## Julie

Sorry to read that Yoda has CD too--or bowed legs.It is good news though that he is not in pain etc.

Paige,
Did you get my cute boy(okay-YOUR )cute boy :laugh:a stroller yet?I keep thinking I'm going to see that handsome man in a stroller pretty soon!hoto::becky:


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## Thumper

That is SO sad about Yoda's legs  I can't imagine how hard it is for these dogs that have this, there has to be some pain/discomfort involved 

Kara


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## susaneckert

There is pain with it but yoda is not hurting that bad he hurts more in the cold weather the heat is better for him I will have to see how he does this winter I sure hope he will never go threw to much pain.When that times comes I will have to put him down I hate hate that idea but I have to plant the seed in my head it will kill me but at least we can do that to animals when they need it .Its not like people no matter what we can not do it to people sad,.I am keeping close contact with my vet and he knows when the time comes I will have to do it.I know where he will be burried at up at my mom he loves it there in the country he will be placed under the old oak tree in her yard next to his buddy DEE DEE she was a sweet girl chinese crested .But for now Yoda gets all the love and play time he can get and all the treats his heart desirers LOL he is the man of this house he gets very spoiled that is for sure


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## Thumper

I have never heard that dogs are "put down" for chrondo. DO they really do that? Howcome they can't treat with pain meds?

Kara


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## susaneckert

They can treat it with pain medication but how would you feel it you where in the same boat if I would never put yoda down unless the pain medication would not be working and only then would it happen I can not see any animal in pain if the meds dont work why let an animal go life threw pain that is not fair to the animal. As for now he is not in pain so he will be with me until the medication does not work,My poor yoda


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## irnfit

Sorry about Yoda. Not because he has bowed legs, just because I don't want to think he is in pain. I had a dog with hip dysplasia and it never gave him a problem until he was 15 yrs old.

Kodi looks like he has bowed legs when he is standing, but when I bathe him and check them, they are straight. Is this just the way he is standing? I am getting paranoid about it and check him all the time. He doesn't have a problem walking, running or jumping.


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## susaneckert

Lets hope he never does Yoda can still jump even though I have made every thing very easy for him he does have problems going down stairs up is ok.Hubby builts stairs for our bed and we pick him up to get off the bed,He can jump off but I dont let him I dont want him in any pain.Or to hurt him self.The grass area is about 6 -8 inches above the ground so we put up steps to make it easyer for him.Since I know what yoda has and I know how bad it can get I am just doing the precaution for him,.Just trying to make it as comfortable as possible and easyer . I know he would do it for me so Im doing it for him. He is a sweet heart threw and threw.I just pray that I would never have to put him down I know me I will have a problem with it and hubby will have to take him . But I hope it is many many years from now.


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## TnTWalter

*I met a dachshund with a wheelchair thingy..*

because he had a bad back or something...perhaps that would work? He was so cute and got around great!!! It was just his back legs though....Hmmm.

I found a website that address rear legs or front legs or all four legs....:whoo:

http://www.dogkarts.com/


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## susaneckert

That is a good idea I remember seeing something on tv a year or so ago about dog karts


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## Leslie

Susan~ What about surgery for him? I know the outcome is variable, but at least it _may_ give him a chance at a more comfortable, normal life. I'd try that _way_ before I'd even consider "putting him down" for it. Does he have any of the other signs of Ockham Syndrome?


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## mckennasedona

Susan, those carts are truly amazing. I'd look into those in the future if Yoda starts to have too much pain walking around. I sure know how you feel about putting him down. It would be awful to have to do that but quality of life is more important than quantity of life. I had the same question as Leslie. Is there any chance surgery could help Yoda?

Susan


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## Thumper

Those wheel carts are very cool! I'm so happy to see a clever inventor coming up with something like that to improve their quality of life.  I deal with alot of inventors in my business, but I am especially impressed with the ones that focus on helping people, or animals!

Susan, have you looked into surgery? I do know a little......scratch that...ALOT about living in pain. I've been a patient in a pain management clinic for about 3 years now, so I do know that the right medicine can make a person, or animal, functional again. And I do think there are pain medicines that could make his life 'pain free', it might take some trial and error and tweaking doses, but if it were Gucci, I'd try every medicine on the planet until I found one that helped.

Yoda is a sweetheart! I think having a little sister will be great for him.

Kara


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## susaneckert

You know Surgery can help and beleave me I would do every thing in my power first and putting yoda down would be the last resort.I to have had to deal with severe pain on a daily base for many many years so I know all the medication side of it. Plus my mother n law is a Nurse so that helps me too.I know how I feel and I would never want Yoda to feel that kind of pain so medication is the first choice.Boy did I open a can of worms to rest every one mind Yoda is not in pain or is he being put down every thing else would come first but I have to plant the seed in my own head for way way far into the furture because it will take me a long long time to convence my self into it does that make any since???I can not be selfish on my part qulity of life is way more imporant to me.I feel the hardest part is saying when is the right time to say he has had enough.But for how he is happy playful and he is my Yoda and I will do what I have to make happy and comfy pain management is GREAT!!!!


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## Thumper

You didn't open a can of worms, I think we all want what is best for our pets and it makes anyone sad to have to say goodbye to one! I'm sure Yoda will live a long happy life and love will keep him going!

Kara


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## Poornima

I have been catching up on the forum. I am so sorry that Yoda is suffering from bowed legs. I hope that he remains painfree and the medication keeps him comfortable. Wish Yoda and you all the best!


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## susaneckert

Thank you and I sure hope I didnt hurt any ones feeling my job is to keep yoda pain free .I am very lucky I have found a vet. that takes care of problems like Yoda has and he is here right in San Diego which is nice instead of driving all the way down to Downey near LA.


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## Paige

Susan, Preston is on Glucosamine and Chondroitin Sulfate, which can be found here http://www.doggy-gifts.com/Health/Hip_and_Joint. I got it in extra strenght formula from the vet, but he said I could use any over the counter after he was done with the bottle he gave me. He will be on it for the rest of his life, it's also in his food, Wellness Core. I believe it can even be found at Walmart, it doesn't have to be for dogs, he said you can give him what you find in the vitamin/supplement section of a store. Preston's is for dogs, but he doesn't like the taste, so I wrap it in cheese.

Another thing that I am doing is giving him a egg yolk a day. I scramble it up and he loves it.

Be careful about him jumping off couches and beds, it can cause his elbow to pop out of socket.

Preston doesn't seem to be in any pain, he runs and plays just like Reece and Nigel. Nigel still can't catch him, although he tries. The only thing I notice is that he limps, but I'm sure I would limp too, if my legs looked like Preston's.

My vet said that if Preston gets to the point that he is in pain and can't walk that there is a surgery that can be done.


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## susaneckert

Hi yes surgery can be done.Yoda is the same way he runs and plays and has a great time Yoda ankel joints buckle all the time when he walks and Yoda limps too. I will check out that site thank you so much for that information . Sounds like you have a good vet Im looking for a new vet I dont care for mine, he is ok for shot ect the simple things but any thing else for get it.I hope preston never feels pain and lives a happy old life Its kind of funny how most animal people take better care of there animals than there selfs I know I do LOL I would take yoda for a walk before I would walk for my self.His food cost more than ours better food than we eat my husband said I want to be a dog you treat them better than me LOL We have stairs for our bed for yoda he wont go down them but he will go up them we keep a close eye on him when it comes to jumping we do what we can not to let him jump but you know how that gos you cant stop him every time.Thanks for the web


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## susaneckert

On the hip and joint did you get the EX strenth by weight or did you go with the heavier dog weight


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## irnfit

Paige, how do your dogs like the Wellness Core? Is it the one that is like a freeze dried raw diet? I got a sample a while back and they seemed to really like it. Wellness just sent me a coupon for money off a bag. Any feedback.


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## Paige

Susan, here is another website http://www.entirelypets.com/jointmaxts1.html, I will order this, when his bottle from the vet is gone. You will give 1/2 tablet per day.

Nigel and Reece love the Wellness Core, Preston has decided that he no longer wants to eat. But he decided this before I switched over, so it's not the food. It is like a raw diet. It has no grain. It has supplements and some vegies and fruits.

Reece's energy level has gone up, since I started feeding Wellness Core. He plays at lot more, than before. My boys have always been on a Wellness brand and I have never had any problems. They have really good ingredients in their product. I also like their treats, they are grain free also, or Old Mother Hubbard is the same company and my boys like their treats. They are not made in China. It's so scary, so I stick with the Wellness brand.


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## susaneckert

Thank you I will order that today I never gave Yoda wellness brand before it is worth a try Yoda is so picky on his food but since we have gotten Leah he eats alot better now he will actually eat his whole bowl of food now. I know what you mean it is scary about every thing is coming from china these days.What happen to the good Old AMERICAN way?????It just does not happen any more.And so hard to fine nowmade in the USA


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## Paige

It's also would be good for Yoda to give him a egg yolk a day. I cook it for mine, but you can give it raw. I saw pictures of a dog that had CD, and was given a yolk a day and his leg straighten some. 

It will not straighten all the way, but anything, is better than nothing.

If you do give the egg yolk, you have to do it for the rest of his life.

If you stop, it will go back to where it was and could get worse, so be sure not to stop if you start it.


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## JASHavanese

TnTWalter said:


> because he had a bad back or something...perhaps that would work? He was so cute and got around great!!! It was just his back legs though....Hmmm.
> 
> I found a website that address rear legs or front legs or all four legs....:whoo:
> 
> http://www.dogkarts.com/


A vet I know kept a dog that was hit by a car and the dog uses one of those carts. He's a happy guy who gets a lot of love and attention in the vet's office from almost everyone who comes in.


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## susaneckert

Yoda does get egg yolk every day no matter what. In my mind I could be wrong but if this breed has a low cals. I would think it would be wise to give them a pill like people take I have also heard that way back in the day if you give your dog vit. B12 it helps too my mom really beleaves in this theory she would give the toy breed that had the CD in the blood line a shot of Vit B 12 and she said it might sound funny but it does work she has seen it with her owen eyes she use to work for a vet.


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## JASHavanese

susaneckert said:


> They can treat it with pain medication but how would you feel it you where in the same boat if I would never put yoda down unless the pain medication would not be working and only then would it happen I can not see any animal in pain if the meds dont work why let an animal go life threw pain that is not fair to the animal. As for now he is not in pain so he will be with me until the medication does not work,My poor yoda


Here's food for thought. My granddaughter had a severely bowed leg. It was so bad that when she wore skirts they would ride up to her stomach and she couldn't wear jeans or tight pants because she'd fall over. She was still a happy girl with a lot of life and love in her. 
The doctors did surgery on her and straightened her leg. The metal plate comes out in December so we'll see if the surgery was a success then. We pray it is, but if not, she'll learn how to live with it and will have help from us all if needed.


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## JASHavanese

susaneckert said:


> Yoda does get egg yolk every day no matter what. In my mind I could be wrong but if this breed has a low cals. I would think it would be wise to give them a pill like people take I have also heard that way back in the day if you give your dog vit. B12 it helps too my mom really beleaves in this theory she would give the toy breed that had the CD in the blood line a shot of Vit B 12 and she said it might sound funny but it does work she has seen it with her owen eyes she use to work for a vet.


The shots of vitamin B 12 would straighten legs?


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## Paige

Exactly Jan, Preston doesn't know his legs are bowed, he has adjusted. If and when it becomes a problem for him, we will look into what will work best for him and do it. 

I need to post a video of him chasing Nigel down in the yard. Nigel never wins, Preson rolls Nigelound: But Nigel keeps trying.ound:


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## JASHavanese

reece said:


> Exactly Jan, Preston doesn't know his legs are bowed, he has adjusted. If and when it becomes a problem for him, we will look into what will work best for him and do it.
> 
> I need to post a video of him chasing Nigel down in the yard. Nigel never wins, Preson rolls Nigelound: But Nigel keeps trying.ound:


(((((((((((((Paige)))))))))))))) :hug: :hug: :hug:


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## susaneckert

This is what my mom beleaves in and she has been a breeder for about 40 years and she has used it ever since I can remember she even gives her own vac shots its alot cheaper and easy to do too.When I told my mom what the vets are chargeing she flip out you can go to a web site and for 1 dose its 5.00 which includes 7 and my vet is charging 28.00 plus office visits which is 40.00 so for 68.00 per set of shots if you do it your self including the surgen and you can get 25 doses its 76.00 with shipping so you can see how much you are saving by doing it your self some thing to think about huh???? She said take the puppy in for normaly exames to make sure she is health and give your own shots.


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## Paige

Susan, CD is in no way a death sentence for any dog. Once there legs quit growing, usually the pain stops. They may have more aches and pains when they are seniors, but there are things that can be done to help them, if the need arises. Find a good vet and do research, so that you and your vet can both do what is best for Yoda.

Never give up, my daughter has a guinea pig, that had a fungal infection that the vet couldn't heal. She got to the point of skin and bones and bald, and she started out a very fat, hairy pig. She was on the brink of death, she quit eating and drinking.

After working with the vet for 6 weeks, I reseached on the internet and found a oil in Europe. I ordered it, and Yeah, once again we have a very fat, and hairy guinea pig. 

I told my vet and gave him the website. Sometimes doctors need help too, they just don't like to admit it. Although, my vet did asked for the website, after telling him about what it did for Snowball.


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## Julie

Susan,
I'm just curious what kind of toy dogs your Mom bred for 40 years with CD?


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## ama0722

There are lots of things you can do with dogs who can't get around physically as easy but I would agree with they can lead happy lives. We currently have a havanese in rescue who was born with a bad leg. Dogs a lot of times, don't show the pain and since he has to carry his weight differently- there are adjustments that help. He is on medication more of a precaution than for pain, we may look at the cart option but as of now, he gets around fine. He is seeing a chiropractor because of his back since he has to carry his weight and throw himself around. He is in physical therapy where they have him do things to strengthen the muscles he doesn't use (put a hair tie on his face so he has to get it off with the bad leg). I think if you have a vet school around you- that can be very helpful in meeting the correct vets to give you other alternatives! 

Amanda


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## susaneckert

She has raised so many different breeds from Toy to Rotties CD is in many breeds and the ones that where known to have this problem these are the ones she would inject with Vit. B12 precaution and ones with CD. Years ago it was not call CD if you go back CD meant Companion Dog that is why I would get confused when you all called it CD That is why when I would type CD in Dogs it would come up music CD When I told my mom that Yoda might have CD she looked at me like what are you talking about CD means Companion Dog There is a nother name for it like Ricket and another one but I can not think of it right now and I can not fine the link where I seen the name I am trying to remember boy my memory is getting bad Like I have said would be the *last resort only if *I had to put him down,


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## Thumper

susaneckert said:


> This is what my mom beleaves in and she has been a breeder for about 40 years and she has used it ever since I can remember she even gives her own vac shots its alot cheaper and easy to do too.When I told my mom what the vets are chargeing she flip out you can go to a web site and for 1 dose its 5.00 which includes 7 and my vet is charging 28.00 plus office visits which is 40.00 so for 68.00 per set of shots if you do it your self including the surgen and you can get 25 doses its 76.00 with shipping so you can see how much you are saving by doing it your self some thing to think about huh???? She said take the puppy in for normaly exames to make sure she is health and give your own shots.


Wow!

I didnt' know you could order vaccines online and do them yourself? Do you do that?

Don't you worry about dosages and reactions and stuff? How do you know that the stuff isn't expired or a scam?

Kara


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## JASHavanese

susaneckert said:


> This is what my mom beleaves in and she has been a breeder for about 40 years QUOTE]
> 
> What does she breed Susan?


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## JASHavanese

Thumperlove said:


> Wow!
> 
> I didnt' know you could order vaccines online and do them yourself? Do you do that?
> 
> Don't you worry about dosages and reactions and stuff? How do you know that the stuff isn't expired or a scam?
> 
> Kara


There's a pet store in town that sells the puppy shots and boosters. They're about 5.00 for each shot. You can't buy the rabies shot though, that has to be given by a vet.
It's much cheaper to buy the shots, but if there's a reaction, I want my dog at the vet's office and am willing to pay the extra money.


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## Paige

Susan, CD stands for Chondrodysplasia


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## susaneckert

Yes you can buy shot where I order them its all safe you have to store them in the frig .They do have an exp. date. ect, My mom use to breed Chinese crested she does not breed any more. She only has cassie now she my mom has retired of breeding She use to breed shelties too before the Crested Jimmy the shelt was on commerials for science diet with better white he was a great dog. Every dog she ever got into the breeding she did make a champ. out of the she was heavy in the shows. She was even invited to Westminster.Champ.and Jim even place in that too I forgot what he won in that since I was just a kid alls I remember it was an honor . As a kid I remember he being go alot at dog shows she would show what ever breed she was in at that time she one had 1 breed at a time I really like the rotties and Dobbies .She has done agility , Ob. and conformation. When my mom heard of me wanting to get into showing she flipped out she said if I want her help she will help me all I need. Every one wanted her to handle there dogs she is very good at it she has a good touch with dogs.I hope I answer all your question so many LOL I still take my dogs to the vet for check ups we just do our owen shots is all.And since my mom use to work for a vet in the surgery department it makes it nice. She has not show in about 6 years now


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## susaneckert

Reece. Thank you for the name .I know when I was a kid CD did not stand for that that is all I was saying but it does now.


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## ama0722

Susan,
You are also right about CD- Dora has CD written behind her name! CD also means Companion Dog which is the first obedience title in AKC! When your dog earns 3 legs in Novice, you can add this title to her name 

Amanda


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## susaneckert

Hi Amanda yes I knew this that is why I would get confused when people would say my dog has CD to me that was a good thing LOL not a bad thing This I think why people get confused in the dog terms CD means 2 things one is good and one is bad GGGGGGGGLOL


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## Julie

We were talking about CD--bowed legs and issues with Preston and Yoda though--not qualifying as a CD.(COMPANION DOG)
I do not think CDound: either form is cured by a B12 shot or all the hav breeders would know.eace:


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## ivyagogo

Holy Moley. I don't know how I could have been on this board since August and missed this thread. I'm so sorry to hear about Preston and Yoda, but I thank you so much for the education. Gryff had a bath just yesterday, but the next time I bathe him I will take a closer look at his legs. I'm pretty sure he's just fine, the way he runs around like a total maniac.


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## ivyagogo

I have been looking at Gryff very closely today. I haven't soaped him up, but I can see that he turns out his front feet a bit. Look at his avatar. He seems completely fine though. I think this thread has made me paranoid!


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## Beamer

Ivy,
My Beamer has very straight legs, but like Gryff, he is also 'Easty Westy'. (feet slightly turned out..)

No big deal, I dont think?? Anyone?? 

Ryan


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## marjrc

Sammy's feet are very 'easty/westy' but his knees seem fine. Not sure what it means longterm.


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## Moko

Molly, too.

Doesn't seem to affect anything she does...and it looks kind of cute!


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## ivyagogo

Maureen, I agree. I just wanted to get an opinion from the board.


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## Beamer

I actually read on a HSD forum that the turned out legs are bad, but they never mentioned why? I have looked around the net, but have really not found to much info on this?? Can anyone that knows please comment?

Thanks!
Ryan


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## Julie

I remember in the famously long thread we had-------
Doc weighed in about this very issue. Michele I believe,posted pictures of Shelby's legs--and Doc said it was easty/westy feet.Doc said it was common in pups I believe and not to worry---this is not a sign a CD.

I am pretty sure that was her comment-----feel free to check out that thread.ound:


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## Havtahava

I don't know which post you are talking about Julie, but turned out feet are definitely not the same as chondrodysplasia. I'd agree with that! 

Ivy, turned out feet (or "easty/westy" feet) are not uncommon, but they are very different from curved legs.


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## Julie

Michele's post with picture of Shelby is 581 I believe in that thread---Doc's answers are 683-685 I believe. I couldn't copy and paste here or I would of.


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## marjrc

Wow, Julie! You are very brave to have ventured into that thread again and find those posts! I bow to you O Brave One ........


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## Havtahava

Ohmygosh, Julie, what a hunt! It took forever for me to find the reply. LMHO!

Michele's photo post is here  (#581) which is not the photo I was thinking of, and Doc's reply is here (#628) and I found it interesting.

Nonetheless, Ryan & Ivy, a turned out foot or two isn't ideal, but it isn't associated with any health problems. Of course, you'll want to have your vet check Beamer's & Gryff's patellas when you have your next checkup, but that's something you should have him/her do at your annual exams anyway.


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## irnfit

It was strange, because when I soaped Shelby, her legs were straight but her feet turned out. Doc was right, because now her legs and feet are straight (unless I trim her feet crooked). I also thought it was just the way she was standing.


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## Havtahava

Michele, sometimes when I am evaluating the front of the dog, I have to pick up the front two legs (by lifting the front of the torso) and see how they place their feet naturally. Like people, sometimes dogs will turn out a foot for whatever reason, when they stand.


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## irnfit

Kodi never stands wonky, but Shelby will still point out sometimes. It's just the way she plants her little legs.


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## ivyagogo

I'm so paranoid I've taken out the tape measure! Ugh, I'm going to bed.


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## marjrc

Poor Ivy. Don't worry about it, hon!


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## maria v

It is so sad to see how he is doing , but the care that you will giv ehim will help to endure his illness. God Bless You!!
maria


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## marjrc

Hey Paige, I know you aren't on here quite as often as you used to be, but I am hoping you see this as I was thinking of you and your boys this past week. How is Preston doing? Please give us an update if you can.


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## ivyagogo

Okay, I'm pretty convinced Gryff has a minor form of this. He just got shaved down due to heavy matting and this is the result. He doesn't seem to mind whatsover and runs and jumps with no problem, but I will talk to the vet about it.


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## Tom King

Gryff does not have CD. His upper legs are plenty straight. His feet may turn out a bit but that's a separate issue and has to be pretty severe to cause a problem. He looks fine.


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## marjrc

Thanks for your input, Tom. I also thought Gryff looked fine, but being a mom too, I'm sure I understand Ivy's concern. Seems we sometimes worry about the little things. 

Sammy has the same turn of the feet going on, but no CD in the legs at all.


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## Doggie Nut

Yeah, I'm not a professional but I was thinking his legs looked ok too! Now you can relax!


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## Leeann

I thought they looked fine also, Tom does it make a differance if she stands him up to take a picture rather than sitting?


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## ivyagogo

Okay, I feel fine now. Thanks everyone.


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## BeverlyA

I'll be honest, I didn't have any idea of what to think when I saw cute Gryff's legs, but now that I've heard Tom's opinion that they're fine I feel much better! 
Yeah Gryff, get out there and run buddy!

Beverly


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## earthnut

Gah! I don't know what to think! Reading through the thread and looking at the pictures on that page was making me scared that Domino's mom had CD and me wishing I hadn't bought from that breeder. But looking at Gryff, she looked a lot like him so maybe it's OK? She's won ribbons, can a Hav with CD win ribbons? When I was at the breeder's, she said the vet gave her dogs the all clear, and both parents won ribbons, so I figured the bowing of the mom's legs were within the range of normal. She was running around and wasn't in pain. But now I have doubts! :Cry:

I will post a pic of Domino. His legs look nice and long, but not quite straight. He's just 4 months.


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## earthnut

Here's photos of Domino. At what age does CD usually develop? By what age will they not develop CD anymore?


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## marjrc

I'm no expert, but I don't seem to see any signs of CD in Domino. It might be more noticeable if here were all wet, soaped up even, to see what's under the hair, but I wouldn't worry. 

Perhaps some of the breeders here can have a look at his pics and let you know.


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## SaydeeMomma

earthnut
I agree with Marj, both on the "I'm no expert" part, and that Domino looks good to me. I think most dogs feet turn out a little bit, you don't usually see pigeon-footed dogs, it's just their natural stance. I know I immediately examined Saydee's legs closely when I saw those pics of poor little Preston. But Domino's legs appear solid and don't look bowed at all.


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## Tom King

Domino is fine. I wouldn't use him for breeding but I don't think his legs will ever give him any trouble. The side view shows that he has plenty of length of leg and his front is nowhere near a "fiddle front".

There are LOTS of Havanese Champions with bowed legs and even short legs. Some breeders, and a LOT of Toy Group judges too, put a premium on "flash of pad" and probably more times than not it comes from short legs which have to be thrown out in front. You can hide a lot under that long fur.

The current standard says, "may show flash of pad" just because some people wanted "flash of pad" to be in the Standard and others didn't. The Standard used to call for both short legs and equal proportions-which is an impossibility under AKC. I think "short legs" was put in there as a translation from another older standard from another language and it doesn't translate the same here. "Short legs" here means that the length of leg is shorter from the floor to elbow than the elbow to peak of withers. Equal means those same measurements are equal. The Cuban Standard has always called for equal, and they have been taking these measurements for decades before their standard was published, but the translation also mentions short legs. I think maybe in other countries "short legs" means shorter than a Borzoi.

You often hear the argument that CD breeds do just fine and don't have related health problems. Breeds that I have heard mentioned are Bulldogs, Corgis, and Bassett Hounds. The Bulldog standard calls for straight legs. A picture in the Gazette not long ago showed the lineup of a Bulldog ring looking down the line from a slight angle onto the fronts and only the dog at the back end of the line had any bowing. Of course we have all seen bow legged Bulldogs. The Corgi and Bassett standards are very clear in exactly how much feet turnout and such is allowed-they are "short legged" breeds. One of them, I don't remember which, clearly states that a fiddle front is to be considered a severe fault. I don't know of any breeds that call for CD or any breeds that say they are a CD breed.

You also hear that you can breed two straight legged dogs and produce CD. That's true but it's not the complete statement. You can also breed some straight legged dogs and never produce CD. But you can breed one of these dogs out to a new mate and get one or both legs bowed. It's also shown up from a pair who had never produced it before but the bitch had a problem pregnancy-like low Thyroid.

My opinion, and I have been looking at this since my wife Pam was breeding Malamutes-the breed that coined the term "Chondrodysplasia"-in the mid 1970s, is that Domino will be just fine and you can stop worrying about him.


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## MopTop Havanese

Tom~ Whats your take on this? 
First noticed bowing of the leg at 6 weeks old-
This is a 6 month old puppy- xrays taken- all growth plates still open~
From two straight legged parents/grandparents. 
She just had Ulnar surgery 3 weeks ago~ the vet said it's a deformity of the joints in her elbow.


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## Cheryl

Katie--is this Mouse? You must think something is going on since a back leg is shaved and she recently had surgery on her front leg. I hope Tom has some thoughts.


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## MopTop Havanese

Cheryl~
Yes this is Mouse, and it's her front leg that just had surgery on it~
I guess in the pic it looks like it could be her back leg!


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## Tom King

I wish I knew enough to answer your question MopTop. I feel like I'm fair at saying what is and isn't by looking at it, but I have zero experience with having to do anything with one who has it enough that requires intervention. I wish her and you the best.


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## JASHavanese

MopTop Havanese said:


> Tom~ Whats your take on this?
> First noticed bowing of the leg at 6 weeks old-
> This is a 6 month old puppy- xrays taken- all growth plates still open~
> From two straight legged parents/grandparents.
> She just had Ulnar surgery 3 weeks ago~ the vet said it's a deformity of the joints in her elbow.


Katie I wonder if the dog laid wrong in the sac or injured itself in the birth canal? Is she in pain?


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## Paige

Katie, will her leg straighten out now. Preston's legs look like Mouse's leg. I know the vet told me that the surgery really wouldn't correct the problem. So far I have been lucky. Preston isn't in any pain and does everything the others do. I do have him on this 
*http://www.entirelypets.com/jointmaxts1.html*


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## MopTop Havanese

Hi Paige~ I am sorry if Mouse's picture hijacked your thread!
No, her leg will not straighten out. The surgeon that did her surgery said the surgery will not "correct" what's wrong with her leg, but _hopefully_ it will prevent her leg from getting worse. But there are no guarantees. (and yes sometimes I still question whether the surgery was the right thing to do). And I do have her on a daily pill similar to what you have Preston on.

Jan~ yes she still seems to be in pain. She is still on strict activity restriction. But when I take her out to go potty, she will take a few steps on the leg, but then she lifts it up to hop the rest of the way to her potty corner in the dog run~ Although last night I was sitting with her in the living room on the floor and suddenly she took off on a RLH around the couch! Huge no-no!! She made it about 4 laps around the couch before I could catch her~ she was wiped out but seemed so proud of herself!:frusty:


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## Paige

MopTop Havanese said:


> Hi Paige~ I am sorry if Mouse's picture hijacked your thread!
> No, her leg will not straighten out. The surgeon that did her surgery said the surgery will not "correct" what's wrong with her leg, but _hopefully_ it will prevent her leg from getting worse. But there are no guarantees. (and yes sometimes I still question whether the surgery was the right thing to do). And I do have her on a daily pill similar to what you have Preston on.


Katie, there is no highjacking going on. This isn't my thread. Please don't think that I feel that way. I too wonder if I should of done the surgery or not. You just never know the right thing to do. I just took my vets advice and I too hope for the best. Preston does very well considering how his legs look. It really doesn't seem to bother him at all. He catches Nigel all the time. Hopefully Mouse will have the same luck.. You know they are like our children, and we just want to do whats best for them.


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## JASHavanese

MopTop Havanese said:


> Jan~ yes she still seems to be in pain. She is still on strict activity restriction. But when I take her out to go potty, she will take a few steps on the leg, but then she lifts it up to hop the rest of the way to her potty corner in the dog run~ Although last night I was sitting with her in the living room on the floor and suddenly she took off on a RLH around the couch! Huge no-no!! She made it about 4 laps around the couch before I could catch her~ she was wiped out but seemed so proud of herself!:frusty:


Poor baby  I hope the surgery helps the pain and she can live a fairly normal life.
If I could do runlikehells like the dogs do, I'd be proud of myself too! :biggrin1:


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## EMarie

WOW I have read this entire thread and I am amazed with this...I have seen legs like Prestons in Bichons, bulldogs (all of them) and doxins but never a Havanese. It is very sad to see and I hope he and Katie live great lives. It just makes you wonder what some people are breeding.


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## MopTop Havanese

EMarie~
I wanted to post on your "It just makes you wonder what some people are breeding." comment.
I am the one who bred Mouse, the pic that you see a few posts back. I own Mouse's Mom, Emmy. Emmy is a Champion and fully health tested. Mouse's dad is also a fully health tested Champion. Both of Mouse's parents and grandparents have nice straight legs. 
We aren't exactly sure why Mouse's leg is the way it is. We will probably never know "why".
I am a responsible breeder. I health test my dogs. Sometimes things happen and we breeders are given a "special" puppy. No one knows why. I am not God. I didn't choose to have a puppy like Mouse. I did everything I could to prevent a puppy like Mouse. But it still happens. Please don't think that all dogs with health issues come from "bad" breeders. Even the best breeders out there can still have health issues crop up~ but we do the best we can.


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## Beamer

Katie, How is mouse since the Op?? When will you know if the op was a success? What does the vet think? Is her other front leg curved to some?? 

Ryan


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## boo2352

MacGyver had ulnar surgery over a year ago -- his leg looked like Preston's and Mouse's (and still does -- the orthopedist said surgery would not change the appearance but may prevent future problems). His breeder had done all the testing on both parents, and neither had any problems (and have straight legs). Fortunately he's in no pain and doesn't seem to know he had a problem. I hope Mouse is feeling better soon. I remember MacGyver's recovery seemed to take forever.


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## MopTop Havanese

Hey Ryan~
Mouse goes in next week for an x-ray to see how things are going. I think only time will tell if the surgery is a success. The hopeful outcome is that her leg doesn't get worse~ So far her vet says she is healing like she should.
And no, her other leg does not have the bowing. It's not stick bone straight, but it's nothing like her bowed one~


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## EMarie

Kate, 
I did not mean to offend you at all!! I know things happen even if you do all your homework. That is life and I understand that. Unfortunately some breeders are not like you and the trend I was seeing with the dogs we would see at the clinic they came from breeders who were just breeding to have pups. I do believe that people are given certian dogs that they will be able to deal with in the future, if you know what I mean. But like I said I did not mean to offend you at all and I am sorry if that is what I did!!!! I am glad there are people who test their boys and girls and I used to educate, educate, educate about health tests but much of that fell on deaf ears.


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## mckennasedona

Katie, I'm glad Mouse is healing as she should. She is a beautiful girl.


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## JASHavanese

MopTop Havanese said:


> EMarie~
> I wanted to post on your "It just makes you wonder what some people are breeding." comment.
> I am the one who bred Mouse, the pic that you see a few posts back. I own Mouse's Mom, Emmy. Emmy is a Champion and fully health tested. Mouse's dad is also a fully health tested Champion. Both of Mouse's parents and grandparents have nice straight legs.
> We aren't exactly sure why Mouse's leg is the way it is. We will probably never know "why".
> I am a responsible breeder. I health test my dogs. Sometimes things happen and we breeders are given a "special" puppy. No one knows why. I am not God. I didn't choose to have a puppy like Mouse. I did everything I could to prevent a puppy like Mouse. But it still happens. Please don't think that all dogs with health issues come from "bad" breeders. Even the best breeders out there can still have health issues crop up~ but we do the best we can.


No, you aren't God but you're doing everything you can for this little doll. If this puppy had come from some breeders it would have been culled and we never would have heard of it. Things can happen despite our best efforts, it's how we deal with it that counts.


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## MopTop Havanese

Jan, I couldn't agree with you more. You absolutely hit the nail on the head.
I am proud of my Mouse. I am not going to hide her or pretend that she isn't here. She is the sweetest thing you will ever meet. 
And I am happy to say that there is a very special family that has adopted her! They have been closely following her progress since long before her surgery. They just can't wait to bring their special girl home once she is all healed up.
But I chose, as her breeder, to get her the surgery and have her recover here, with me, before she goes to her new home. I chose to bring Mouse into this world, I will be responsible for her.
I don't think anyone should pity her or feel sorry for her. She is a strong, sweet wonderful puppy who will go on to live a long happy life. She has a breeder who loves her, and a new family that is going to spoil her forever. 
I chose to share her story to help educate. So people can learn from Mouse and her situation. Because I know there will be other dogs just like her. And I hope that anyone who is lucky enough to get a special puppy like Mouse can feel secure that they aren't the only one. That they don't have to go thru it alone. That others have been in their shoes.
People may point fingers or talk. They may say I am the breeder that bred "that puppy with the bowed leg". But that's ok. I don't care what they think. I was chosen to be Mouse's breeder. And I love her. I will go broke before turn my back on any puppy that I bring into this world.


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## isshinryu_mom

How I wish, wish, wish my Roxie had started her life with someone who loved her as much as you do Mouse, Katie. I couldn't love Roxie more, but can't help think how wonderful it would be if all puppies came into this world this loved. Please continue to post the situations you breeders face. I hope the internet will be flooded with stories like this so that when someone googles "HAVANESE" they will find this type story instead of ads for puppies from breeders who breed for money, not love. Somehow I didn't find the forum when looking for information on havanese. I had a really bad experience with one breeder and then a couple of brushes with people that were little more than puppy mills in someone's home. It wasn't until finding the forum I realized that there were breeders who love the puppies they have enough to lose any "profit" there might be giving them medical care... breeders who will give you your money back and find a better home for the puppy you bought from them that just isn't working out... breeders who would quit breeding a dog who had a problem losing the investment they've put into them. 

Anyway, I'm just a pet owner and will probably never have the pleasure of another dog. But if I do it will be from someone who loves her puppies as much as you (and so many more of the forum's breeders) do. Thank you for sharing Mouse's life with us.


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## Paige

Katie, I just wanted to commend you on posting about Mouse. You know we are not in control of life. Nature does as it sees fit. I too am blessed to have Preston in my life. I'm sure I picked him for a reason. He needed a family that would take care of him no matter what and that is actually what he has. I too, don't care what people think. I didn't ask for a dime back from my breeder, because I can't put a dollar amount on Preston. He is priceless. I felt that it would of been insulting who Preston is. I also posted about his legs to educate, so others would know what to look for and know where to come and ask questions. So thank you for be a upstanding breeder and person and telling Mouse's story. 

And please everyone when you see Preston's legs, don't pity him. I assure you he is a VERY HAPPY SPOILED Havanese by his whole human famiily. Remember the other photos I post of him playing with all his brothers and his girlfriend Axl, because that is who Preston is.


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## mckennasedona

Hooray, Katie!
So Mouse has a wonderful new family? It's not me....darn! I'm happy for them. They are getting a beautiful dog. So what if she walks with a limp. So do some of the finest PEOPLE I know.


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## KrisE

*I was wondering if the x-rays from Preston's early puppy days are available?*

There are two surgeries apparently for CD. One, if you catch it early enough, they seperate the two bones so the one that's growing faster won't bow further from the constraint of the other bone.

The second would be if she is in pain after her growth plates have closed to break the larger bone and straighten her legs. I think this one would be where a rod is placed as well.

I'm trying to access at 4/5 months Coco's current situation as to whether to let her grow and miss this chance to arrest further development of CD or wait and see if it gets so bad I have to opt for surgery to straighten later on.

I'm posting her x-rays here. They were taken last week at 17 weeks of age. She's got at least 3 more months of growth left.

Also, should I try feeding her egg yolks?


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## KrisE

do you see on the (3rd photo) how her left ankle joint is oval rather than round compared to the lesser effected right leg (first picture)? The Surgeon says this is the concern, that her wrist will give out... she runs fine but does stumble ... I can't tell if this is normal for a 4.5 month puppy or not. 
If you let your 4.5 month old puppy outside to run around, do you see them stumble forward several times during play?


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## sweetlotus

From my experience of my 5-month old, she never stumbled during a recent all out run around. But, some pups may be clumsier than others. So, I'm not sure whether it is normal or not.


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## KrisE

I haven't seen her stumble inside, just outside so it could be the incline she's running on or even uneven ground.


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## JASHavanese

Kris, if it helps any, my grandkiddo had human CD. Her little legs were so bowed that she couldn't even wear a pair of jeans and when she wore skirts they would ride up to her tummy from the bowing of her legs. She had to wait until I think it was 2 years old to have surgery and had a cast on both legs. We thought she'd be in terrible pain and not be able to walk. Instead a couple of days after surgery she learned to scoot herself all over the place and stayed a happy little girl. The casts were on for a few months and when they took them off there was a chance that the bowing would come back. She has a little bowing but not much. To see her in jeans and skirts is a thrill and to see her be able to run is amazing.
It can't hurt anything to try the yolk a day so why not? If you decide to stop the egg wean her off of it instead of stopping cold though.


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## JASHavanese

tuggersmom said:


> [ He runs like the wind and has amazing endurance and appears to jump and leap without effort. Can a dog with bad legs move like this? Should I limit his exercise if he is not in pain? Here are a couple of pictures. What do you think?


Why limit him if he's not in pain? Let him enjoy himself. What surprises me is that his front legs are longer than the back. I would expect the opposite


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## JASHavanese

tuggersmom said:


> he might be stretching in that picture. In his normal stand/walk, his bum is higher than his front. When he runs he usually bounds like a rabbit. Probally because of his short front reach.
> 
> deb


That reminded me of years ago when I had just my pom. We were out camping and a friend wanted to go for a long hike. He asked if he could take my pom and since she grew up knowing him I said sure. Off they went and I think I cooked dinner for everyone. Anyhow lots of time went by and there was no sign of them. The weather was starting to look not so great and I was getting worried. You could see for miles out there and I finally saw him but didn't see my pom. I freaked! They got about a quarter of a mile closer to me and then I finally saw my girl and the only way I could see her with the high grass was because she was jumping like a bunny over that grass. Then I could relax and giggle watching her each time she came up over the grass.
Wow, that was over 20 years ago and when I saw him out in Ca last year we still laughed about it


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## jillnors2

No one is god, but as novices, we do trust breeders for better or worse. katie-you seem awesome and so caring, I'm so glad you are responsible for your pups.

Kris-Good luck with your precious pooch. I would be so upset as I'm an agility mom, thank goodness my rescue has straight legs (no teeth but straight legs...lol)


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## BeverlyA

Jill, Katie IS awesome! She is one breeder who openly faced this problem and let us ALL learn from it. She didn't try to hide little Mouse or trick someone into buying her. She kept her until she could have the surgery, helped her threw the surgery, did everything right by Mouse, the way a person that really cared about the breed would. Katie is a wonderful example of a breeder that truly loves the breed.

I, personally, and just speaking for myself, think it's a very sad thing for the HCA and the very dedicated and caring members of the HCA when one of their members knowingly breeds and/or sells poor quality puppies. We, as novice pet owners are to trust the HCA breeders from the breeders directory, but are now told not to necessarily trust a breeder just because they are a member of HCA. From my VERY outside point of view, it seems to me if you are good enough to be in the HCA, you should be trustworthy as a breeder, and if not, that this should be something addressed by the club.
If members of the HCA can't be trusted not to breed CD dogs who can be for heavens sake?:frusty:

Beverly


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## JASHavanese

BeverlyA said:


> Jill, Katie IS awesome! She is one breeder who openly faced this problem and let us ALL learn from it. She didn't try to hide little Mouse or trick someone into buying her.
> Beverly


YUP, YUP, YUP!!!!!!!!! An open breeder is an awesome breeder. i posted that my girl had a puppy with an underbite. Holy cow I got trashed for it. I was told I was lying and trying to make the stud look bad. Hey, it takes two to tango and MY bitch had this puppy. Pictures and a vet report don't lie and she likes the bite. Says it makes him look like he's always smiling. When I sold her the puppy I told her that it had the underbite and my vet said to wait a month and have certain teeth pulled (he wrote it all down so she could take it to her vet) and I offered to help with the vet bill. 
One of my puppy buyers had a question and said she was going to ask about it but she wouldn't say who the breeder was. I told her the heck with that, feel free to say exactly where you got the dog. (the dog is fine)
Where I draw the line is if it isn't a genetic problem and something happens on the owner's end.


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## jillnors2

> I, personally, and just speaking for myself, think it's a very sad thing for the HCA and the very dedicated and caring members of the HCA when one of their members knowingly breeds and/or sells poor quality puppies. We, as novice pet owners are to trust the HCA breeders from the breeders directory, but are now told not to necessarily trust a breeder just because they are a member of HCA. From my VERY outside point of view, it seems to me if you are good enough to be in the HCA, you should be trustworthy as a breeder, and if not, that this should be something addressed by the club.
> If members of the HCA can't be trusted not to breed CD dogs who can be for heavens sake?


Beverly, this makes sense to me and I agree 100% !!

Still so impressed by Katie. Wish there were more breeders like her!!!


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## hedygs

JASHavanese said:


> YUP, YUP, YUP!!!!!!!!! An open breeder is an awesome breeder. i posted that my girl had a puppy with an underbite. Holy cow I got trashed for it. I was told I was lying and trying to make the stud look bad. Hey, it takes two to tango and MY bitch had this puppy. Pictures and a vet report don't lie and she likes the bite. Says it makes him look like he's always smiling. When I sold her the puppy I told her that it had the underbite and my vet said to wait a month and have certain teeth pulled (he wrote it all down so she could take it to her vet) and I offered to help with the vet bill.
> One of my puppy buyers had a question and said she was going to ask about it but she wouldn't say who the breeder was. I told her the heck with that, feel free to say exactly where you got the dog. (the dog is fine)
> Where I draw the line is if it isn't a genetic problem and something happens on the owner's end.


Jan my little Domino had a pretty pronounced underbite. Made me love him more with those quirky teeth. We called him our "cheshire dog" because it's true, it looked like he was always smiling. I miss those darn teeth and the special dog attached to them.


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## Julie

I think a distinction needs to be made or at least questioned.

I think a bent leg is not CD. CD comes with lots of other issues.Am I wrong? Isn't CD described as having other issues such as an abnormally large head,short limbs,liver issues? I quickly looked at Diane Klumb's book The Havanese and maybe I am misunderstanding.....???........???


*I highly respect Katie and her dealing with Mouse and breeder honesty and her willingness to be forthright,open and share with us. I think that says alot about Katie as a person/breeder. I couldn't respect her more. I don't think it is fair to even imply or assume however that Mouse had CD. I think there needs to be a distinction between a pup with a bent leg and a CD dog that has all the other syptoms/defects as well.

I don't want to stir the pot,but I think every breeder,even if you are the best of the best,will at some point get a pup that maybe "isn't quite right". It is just human nature. Speaking from experience--You can take 2 perfectly healthy humans and have a few children. 2 can be perfectly normal healthy children with no issues at all,but the third comes along to the same parents and that child has developmental disabilities. It happens.

I'm not defending any person who knowingly breeds puppies with defects and disorders such as CD or Ockham's syndrome,but I do believe you can get a "fluke" and I don't think that person should be thrown under a bus or something.


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## ama0722

Julie- I am as confused as you are.... the more I read about CD, the more I don't know. Also, I think there are a lot of people out there aren't sure and it is more opinion v. science. In other breeds with short upper arms, there is suppose to be a curved leg cause (just looked at the illustrated corgi standard). Also could a dog be CD with straight short legs? It appears so with other breeds that are plagued by dwarfism and CD. So I am not sure just soaping the legs is the best way to get it out of the breed.

Here is an interesting artcile that has some pictures and discussions about other breeds as well.
http://www.dogstuff.info/dwarfism_lanting.html


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## Julie

Oh I see----I'm learning

CD is the term for bent legs-period. Right?
Then when the dog has bent legs and is said to have CD,then other defects such as the big head,short stature,liver,eyes etc. all are then said to have Ockham syndrome...according to Diane Klumb.

Confusing...


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## good buddy

Is is confusing isn't it? Is there really any medical proof about Ockham Syndrome? Or that CD dogs have these other issues? To my understanding there aren't any medical tests to prove a dog even has CD. So then is it just a doctors or breeders opinion whether a dog has Cd or just bent legs? The whole short leg, big head connection is a bit suspect to me since these are some of the hurtful things said during "the split". So is this really a medically proven thing? Or is it just conjecture? I'm pretty confused.


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## BeverlyA

Oh I don't want there to be any confusion on what I am trying to say, and my personal opinion. I am NOT referring to the occasion when things just happen, as they always do with genetics, in people and animals, and all things in nature. I am referring to a breeder who will intentionally breed a bitch that they know has bowed legs (for this example) which is very likely to be passed on to it's puppies and also very likely to cause those puppies health problems in their futures, but choses to breed that bitch anyway.

In that way the breeder would be breaking the by-laws of the HCA, as I see them anyway.

I guess this just took me by great surprise, and it's my own fault because of my ASSUMPTIONS.
You do not have to have your breeding dogs health tested to be a breeder and be a member of the HCA. You do not have to report any health testing if you happen to do them and they are good or bad if you are a breeder and are a member of the HCA. You do not have to give a health guarantee if you are a breeder and a member of HCA. You don't really have to do anything a "reputable" breeder would do UNLESS YOU ARE ON THE BREEDER DIRECTORY LIST. 

This just came as a big surprise to me, because after sitting in on the HCA meetings at Nationals and hearing the discussions concerning the Breeder Directory, I never realized there was a distinction between what breeders did, health testing wise.
Now NO way am I saying that I think many or even quite a few breeders are breeding Havanese using bad breeding practices, but why should there be any at all, hiding behind the highly regarded HCA banner?
If a member really doesn't care enough about the breed to do the health testing, that we all tirelessly preach about, do they deserve to be in the HCA?

If i was one of the huge majority of the members of the HCA that adores the Havanese breed, and indeed does everything they can to better the breed with every well thought out litter they produce, I would be pi!?ed off that other breeders could take the lazy sloppy way out and ruin all of their hard work, plus tarnish the good name of our club.

I've been trying to do a lot of reading recently about genetics and canines and the way I understand the Corgi is yes, it is dwarfism for them, not like our Hav's.

I don't personally believe the syndrome has been proven scientifically, but I don't think it's impossible. 
When it's just the bowing of the legs it's CD. 
That's how I understand it anyway! :ear:

Beverly


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## PattyNJ

Oh my...I have tears in my eyes too. He sounds like such a sweet dear little dog. You are really blessed to have him and in turn, he is blessed to have you. 

Our "jars of clay" bodies may be imperfect but the love you two have for each other IS perfect. What a treasure!


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## Tom King

quote from BeverlyA post #238: "If members of the HCA can't be trusted not to breed CD dogs who can be for heavens sake?:frusty:"

There's actually a fairly large group of us who are doing everything we can in that direction and we have nothing at all to do with the HCA anymore. It all started when a Conformation Certificate we were working on to have available to anyone with a Havanese was shouted down for being prejudiced against dogs with bowed legs.


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## KrisE

I guess you could have two certificates.. one is conformation for breeding
another is pet quality, non breeding.

I'd love to see the list of those opposed to giving CD dogs conformation certificates.


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## peluitohavanese

Sigh...please give me a break. There are many HCA breeders, MYSELF included that are breeding for straight legs... sheesh...uke:


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## peluitohavanese

*Time to get educated and do some research*

I have decided to re-post my article that was in the Our Havanese magazine two issues ago. 
Please note the highlighted portions. I cannot emphasize enough how some of this bs that is going around is just that. b.s. :brushteeth:

The Havanese is the National dog of Cuba and its only native breed. 
The Havanese is an AKC Registered breed. As such, the can compete in AKC events and earn titles in conformation, rally, obedience and agility. The Havanese is judged in AKC conformation events to the Havanese standard as written and approved by the Havanese Club of America, and accepted by the American Kennel Club as the only standard by which the Havanese shall be judged. 
Havanese are health tested for eyes (CERF), congenital deafness (BAER), patellar luxation, hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, cardiac, and legg-calve-perthes. These tests are evaluated by OFA orthopedic specialists, A.C.V.O. diplomats and veterinary audiologists who follow specific testing guidelines and protocols established for testing of all breeds in their database. 
The AKC has built the world's largest database of canine DNA profiles for parentage verification and genetic identity purposes. AKC DNA profiles are required for frequently used sires, semen collection for fresh-extended or frozen use, and for sires, dam and puppies of Multiple-Sired Litter registrations, and also has Voluntary DNA profiles

These are two well established and very reputable canine health organizations: OFA and CERF.

OFA
What is the OFA? The OFA, Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, was founded in 1966. The mission of the OFA is "To improve the health and well being of companion animals through a reduction in the incidence of genetic disease". They are guided by 4 specific objectives:
•	To collate and disseminate information concerning orthopedic and genetic diseases of animals.
•	To advise, encourage and establish control programs to lower the incidence of orthopedic and genetic diseases.
•	To encourage and finance research in orthopedic and genetic diseases in animals.
•	To receive funds and make grants to carry out these objectives.
The testing methodology and the criteria for evaluating the test results for each database the OFA maintains, was independently established by veterinary scientists from their respective specialty areas, and the standards used are generically accepted throughout the world.

CERF
What is CERF? The Canine Eye Registration Foundation is an organization that was founded by a group of concerned, purebred owner/breeders who recognized that the quality of their dogs' lives was being affected by heritable eye disease. CERF was then established in conjunction with cooperating board certified, veterinary ophthalmologists, as a means to accomplish the goal of elimination of heritable eye disease in all purebred dogs by forming a centralized, national registry. After examination of the dog's eyes, an A.C.V.O. (American College of Veterinary Opthalmolologists) Diplomat completes the CERF form and indicates any disease(s) found. Breeding advice is offered based on guidelines established for that particular breed and by the genetics Committee of the A.C.V.O. CERF and A.C.V.O. are separate, but cooperating entities. A.C.V.O. provides their professional services and expertise to ensure that uniform standards are upheld for the certification of dog's eyes with the CERF organization.

*There is no 100 percent guarantee that your or any person's dog will not develop a minor or major health issue. Simply stated - there is no perfect dog. If a breeder pledges that their dogs will never have any health issues because both parents of the dog are health tested, or because of the lines in the pedigree, they are misleading you. A responsible breeder does extensive health testing on their dogs and ensures passing results before breeding them. A reputable breeder offers a health guarantee in their sales contract, and is available for the life of your puppy. Results of health screenings for the parents and grandparents of a dog are a pretty good indicator of health in the dogs' lines; unfortunately, this is no guarantee that there will never be health issues in those lines or their offspring. Soaped pictures help breeders evaluate the structure of their dogs, but do not replace health testing and are not an indicator of health test results.* 
OFA and CERF/A.C.V.O have specific protocols and guidelines for each of their tests. They also have a grading system that is uniformly followed when awarding a passing or failing result.

Here are links to their protocols and grading systems and information about the HCA Health Committee's Paws for Health awards:

AKC Registered Havanese 
OFA CHIC number and certificate displaying the results of 4 tests required for CHIC (CERF, BAER, HIPS, Patellas)
OFA numbers and certificates are issued for these individual health tests:
•	Hip Dysplasia	radiograph submitted by veterinarian, and evaluated by orthopedic specialists at OFA	Hip Dysplasia Radiograph Procedures - http://www.offa.org/hipproc.html
Breeder Guidelines http://www.offa.org/hipguide.html 
Hip Grades http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html

•	Elbow Dysplasia	radiograph submitted by veterinarian, and evaluated by orthopedic specialists at OFA	Evaluating the Elbow http://www.offa.org/elbowgrade.html
Questions & Concerns Regarding Elbow Dysplasia http://www.offa.org/edanswers.html

•	Legg-Calve-Perthes Disease	radiograph submitted by veterinarian, and evaluated by veterinary orthopedic specialists at OFA	Legg-Calve-Perthes Radiographic Information http://www.offa.org/lcpproc.html

•	Patellar Luxation	evaluated by a veterinary practitioner or specialist	Diagnosing Patellar Luxation http://www.offa.org/patluxdx.html 
Grades of Patellar Luxation http://www.offa.org/patluxgrade.html

•	Congenital Cardiac Disease	evaluated by a veterinary practitioner or specialist	Congenital Cardiac Disease Physical Exam http://www.offa.org/cardiacphys.html 
Cardiac Disease Echocardiographic Exam http://www.offa.org/cardiacecho.html 
Congenital, & Congenital Cardiac Grades http://www.offa.org/cardiacgrade.html 
Breeder Guidelines http://www.offa.org/cardiacguide.html

•	Congenital Deafness	evaluated by a board certified neurologist or experienced veterinary audiologist	BAER Testing Protocol http://www.offa.org/deafbaer.html 
Genetics of Deafness in Dogs http://www.offa.org/deafgeninfo.html

•	CERF (Heritable Eye Disease)	evaluated each year by an A.C.V.O. Diplomat and issued by CERF (Canine Eye Research Foundation)	CERF Diagnostic Spotlight http://www.vmdb.org/dxspot.html 
What is CERF? http://www.vmdb.org/history.html

Paws for Health Award*
(are awarded to dogs owned or bred by members of the Havanese Club of America that have passed the tests for each award)
Levels are:
•	Bronze (BAER, CERF, Patellas)
•	Silver (BAER, CERF, Patellas, Cardiac)
•	Gold (BAER, CERF, Patellas, Cardiac, Hips, Elbows, Legg-Calve-Perthes)
•	Platinum - issued to Havanese over 7 years old (BAER, CERF, Patellas, Cardiac, Hips, Elbows, Legg-Calve-Perthes)
*http://www.havaneseclubofamerica.or...d446b15629ea=3247cd012362d0abdf002be183d0acc3

*Did you know that OFA does not have a test or certification for chondrodysplasia (CD)? Knowing this, how can some breeders affirm that their dogs have no osteochondrodysplasia? How can some breeders assert that dogs with CD (for which there is no established test), have health issues that are directly associated to crooked legs? How is it possible to make such a claim without an official diagnostic test and without scientific research that uses the results of this test in their sampling? *

_*What are the testing processes and evaluation criteria used to certify that a dog is free from overt chondrodysplasia? Overt, according to Webster's, means "open and observable, not hidden, concealed, or secret." Open and observable by who or whom? Open and observable to the naked eye, or by radiograph? 
If overt chondrodysplasia is CD that is observable, pray tell, who is doing the observing? *_*
Who determines and decides that a dog has acceptable proportions and straight legs? If dogs are certified for conformation, pray tell, who is doing the certifying? Is this conformation credential awarded by a panel of well-recognized, experienced, and knowledgeable judges?* 

*Is there a screening process being used to certify that a dog is CD-free and is it sponsored by an organization similar to, or just as reputable as OFA? Are these testing procedures officially documented, do they have uniform standards that can be applied when screening for CD, and if so, what is their grading scale and where is the database where these results are stored and disclosed to the public?

Until there is the following:
•	an accepted method of testing, 
•	precise criteria independently established by orthopedic veterinary specialists that can be used to evaluate test results, 
•	a database that is maintained and disclosed to the public by a reputable organization such as OFA,
It will be difficult, if not impossible to claim that a dog has CD or doesn't have CD.

One of my favorite sayings comes to mind as I write these last lines. It goes something like this..."Just because someone says so, doesn't make it so", "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.".*


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## KrisE

haven't other breeds had a standard set with OFA for bowed legs?


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## peluitohavanese

Not that I'm aware of. If you go to offa.org and look up the different tests they track results for, you will not find CD.


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## Julie

Tom King said:


> quote from Julie: "If members of the HCA can't be trusted not to breed CD dogs who can be for heavens sake?:frusty:"
> 
> There's actually a fairly large group of us who are doing everything we can in that direction and we have nothing at all to do with the HCA anymore. It all started when a Conformation Certificate we were working on to have available to anyone with a Havanese was shouted down for being prejudiced against dogs with bowed legs.


Tom,
I don't know where the hel you are getting that quote at and attributing it to *me*.....but I don't appreciate that crap one bit! I DID NOT SAY THAT EVER-------That is not right to say it came from me. I highly resent that. You go back and READ everyone of my posts...........................................


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## Julie

I ACTUALLY TRUST THE HCA AND IT'S BREEDERS....I HAVE NO REASON NOT TO......AND I WOULD DAM WELL THROUGHLY LOOK OVER ANY PUP I WAS BUYING FROM ANYONE!


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## Beamer

Calm down guys! lol.. It was actually Beverly that said it.. Tom should have used the forum feature of quoting so not to make an error..

Ryan


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## peluitohavanese

Julie, not once did I believe you said or would say that, so no worries. 
All this talk about a "certain group" being the only ones who care to breed for straight legs is total HOGWASH. :croc:


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## Julie

Beamer said:


> Calm down guys! lol.. It was actually Beverly that said it.. Tom should have used the forum feature of quoting so not to make an error..
> 
> Ryan


I know it was Beverly that posted that,but it pisses me off that he said *I did*. It is not that I necessarily disagree with Beverly,but I don't have any reason to make such a statement,and well to be honest---wouldn't say such a thing.

I had a pretty good outcome with my Quince/buying experience and how he turned out. Would there be things I'd do different? Hel yes.....but he is a good dog,I was as thorough as I knew at the time.

My own belief,not that it matters-----is the HCA is a great organization with great people at the helm. I have no reason to trust or dis-trust any of them.

I think with all purchases--you can't go in with your eyes shut. That being furniture,tampons,cars, and yes......even dogs. If a person trusts blindly...you are asking for trouble in all situations.

My own opinion of the HSD thing,makes no difference to a sole-- I wish them well and if they make their own breed,good for them....but they have Dorothy Goodall to thank the same way we "havanese" people do.


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## Julie

peluitohavanese said:


> All this talk about a "certain group" being the only ones who care to breed for straight legs is total HOGWASH. :croc:


I agree---a hav is a hav is a hav.


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## peluitohavanese

:whoo:


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## Julie

I don't know about you guys----but I get up every day and look at my happy havanese Quincy--all excited and happy,and there has not been one day that I haven't thought to myself...Thanks to Dorothy Goodall. I am VERY appreciative to Dorothy and the other people who worked dam hard to save this breed for all of us to enjoy. *I am greatful*. I believe she has helped me to get the hav I currently have at my feet,who has been a joy in my life and helped my son with his disabilities. Just because you may not have bought your hav directly from Dorothy,you still have Dorothy to thank.I'd like to think a piece of Dorothy comes with every havanese. May she rest in peace knowing what joy she has brought to our lives.......


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## Havtahava

I agree Julie. I'm glad you will be there for the tribute to Dorothy Goodale and our 30th anniversary of the HCA.

By the way, as with any group, I think it is a bad idea to assume a group is bad because of a problem with one person. We know better than to do it with ethnic groups, and it bodes the same for dog clubs. There are a lot of great breeders in the HCA who work to better the breed, eliminate health issues as much as possible and breed for straight legs. For anyone to say differently, they are lying. By the same token, any breeder who says they have never had any health issues in their dogs, they are lying or new to breeding.


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## Julie

Yes,I was thrilled to see the National was dedicated to her. I hope they have specialty merchandise in her honor there.


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## Carefulove

Julie said:


> ...I think with all purchases--you can't go in with your eyes shut. That being furniture,*tampons*,cars, and yes......even dogs. If a person trusts blindly...you are asking for trouble in all situations...


I am sorry, I know this is a serious matter, but I can't help it to think of my DH buying tampons. He would probably want to keep his eyes closed on this one! ound:

Ok, now :focus: sorry...


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## Julie

Zuryound:

Yes,he might....but then he'd get the "super" or some wierd brand you didn't want! Isn't that called "grab and go" ound:


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## Carefulove

Julie said:


> ...but then he'd get the "super" or some wierd brand you didn't want!...


And his answer to my questioning would be "It doesn't matter" or "Is the same thing" ... Isn't that the typical guy answer to every single question... :brick:


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## peluitohavanese

Sure.. unless he was the one having to wear them....now THERE's a thought! :brushteeth:


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## Carefulove

peluitohavanese said:


> Sure.. unless he was the one having to wear them....now THERE's a thought! :brushteeth:


hmmm, don't know 'bout yours, but mine has no place to put them...unless...

I reaaaaally hope we are talking about the same thing here...ound:


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## Julie

ound:

This reminds me of a funny story--my mom always used to send my dad into the grocery store to buy her tampons....Dad always got the right ones(he was trained well),but he told me he was embarrased at the checkouts always buying mom tampons---so he told me "I bet they think I smoke 'em!" Dad always smoked a pipe and everyone knew it....but it must of been humiliating for Dad.ound: I don't know if he actually ever told the checkout ladies that or not!ound:


----------



## Carefulove

Julie said:


> ound:
> 
> This reminds me of a funny story--my mom always used to send my dad into the grocery store to buy her tampons....Dad always got the right ones(he was trained well),but he told me he was embarrased at the checkouts always buying mom tampons---so he told me "I bet they think I smoke 'em!" Dad always smoked a pipe and everyone knew it....but it must of been humiliating for Dad.ound: I don't know if he actually ever told the checkout ladies that or not!ound:


I can imagine the cashiers talking to each other "hm, here comes the tampon smoker"... ound: Poor guy!


----------



## Tom King

Julie said:


> Tom,
> I don't know where the hel you are getting that quote at and attributing it to *me*.....but I don't appreciate that crap one bit! I DID NOT SAY THAT EVER-------That is not right to say it came from me. I highly resent that. You go back and READ everyone of my posts...........................................


Sorry, you're right! I went back and edited it correctly.

I'll delete this message if you want to delete yours and then there will be no record of it if you like.


----------



## Tom King

quote from AMA0722 post @243
"In other breeds with short upper arms, there is suppose to be a curved leg cause (just looked at the illustrated corgi standard"

The use of the Corgi is not a valid correlation to the Havanese. The Corgi is a short legged, heavy bodied (relative to the Havanese) dog. The heavier weight carried necessitates having a larger head on the bones in the legs. If you look at their standard you will see that they are a short legged breed and it doesn't call for a short upper arm. http://www.akc.org/breeds/pembroke_welsh_corgi/

If you hold your arm out and twist the wrist you will see how the bones in your forearm twist in relation to each other so that your hand can twist. In the dog these bones are also weight bearing so they have to be sized according to the job at hand. With bones that size for their length, as the Corgi has, there is a necessity for there to be some curvature so the joints at the top can twist some to allow that motion for the foot. This should not be used as any kind of comparison to Havanese legs.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the upper arm but rather thickness compared to length of the bones of the leg. You do see Havanese with larger than average bones who have some of this curvature but those typically are unusually heavy or large for the breed.

The Cubans use a method of measuring the relative lengths of the upper arm to the leg using their fingers. I came up with the method of simply picking up the dogs foot, folding the leg at the elbow, and you can easily see if the leg bones are longer than the upper arm. With the foot folded, if the joint above the foot sticks out farther to the front than the point of shoulder (where the humerus(upper arm) meets the scapula (collar bone) then the dog has a short upper arm. It is quicker to do than to talk about it.

There are indeed many Havanese with short upper arms and straight legs. Our house is full of them.

The Malamute people were the first group to use the term Chondrodysplasia (CD) back in the mid 1970's. My wife Pam was breeding them then and we remember the controversy and testing all too well. Their use of the term was simply for deformed legs. All sorts of information can be found online about that with Google searches.

You also always hear that you can breed two straight legged dogs and still get CD. This is true, I guess, but I can tell you for a fact that you can breed SOME straight legged dogs and not produce CD.


----------



## Tom King

KrisE said:


> I guess you could have two certificates.. one is conformation for breeding
> another is pet quality, non breeding.
> 
> I'd love to see the list of those opposed to giving CD dogs conformation certificates.


The Conformation Certificate was to be for any Havanese. Other breeds use them. It was to be a tool for breeders or new people to the breed since few understood conformation and every show people would come up to us to go over their dog. Invariably they would email back later asking us specific questions about their dog and a lot of times we couldn't remember because at some shows we went over a LOT of dogs. It would have been a written record to refer back to.

The committee sent it to Pam and me because they wanted the point total to come out to 100 for a perfect score and wanted us to work on it. We came up with the idea of doubling the point values for the Critical Points of Breed Type, one of which was straight legs. The point values were already allotted more for some things than others anyway so if the dog had bowed legs the score would automatically be significantly lower.

The whole idea was thrown out because it was "prejudiced against bowed legs". It was.


----------



## peluitohavanese

Once again...uke:

Conformation certificates are AKC championships whereby multiple UNBIASED judges will judge your dog at various shows and award points to dogs that are closest to the standard as written and approved by the Havanese Club of America. There are many different elements of breed type, not just legs.

Bowed legs are a structural issue, and as such, should be handled as hips or elbows are and handled by OFA. Establish a test and grading system, such as there is for hips and patellas, have up to 3 diffent orthopedic veterinary specialists evaluate the x-rays and not some Joe Bloe down the corner who is not un-biased and does not have the proper preparation to do evals.
Post results in an OFA database, and then and only then will there be some stats to start working with.

hocus pocus...



> ..Did you know that OFA does not have a test or certification for chondrodysplasia (CD)? Knowing this, how can some breeders affirm that their dogs have no osteochondrodysplasia? How can some breeders assert that dogs with CD (for which there is no established test), have health issues that are directly associated to crooked legs? How is it possible to make such a claim without an official diagnostic test and without scientific research that uses the results of this test in their sampling?
> 
> What are the testing processes and evaluation criteria used to certify that a dog is free from overt chondrodysplasia? Overt, according to Webster's, means "open and observable, not hidden, concealed, or secret." Open and observable by who or whom? Open and observable to the naked eye, or by radiograph?
> If overt chondrodysplasia is CD that is observable, pray tell, who is doing the observing?
> Who determines and decides that a dog has acceptable proportions and straight legs? If dogs are certified for conformation, pray tell, who is doing the certifying? Is this conformation credential awarded by a panel of well-recognized, experienced, and knowledgeable judges?
> 
> Is there a screening process being used to certify that a dog is CD-free and is it sponsored by an organization similar to, or just as reputable as OFA? Are these testing procedures officially documented, do they have uniform standards that can be applied when screening for CD, and if so, what is their grading scale and where is the database where these results are stored and disclosed to the public?
> 
> Until there is the following:
> • an accepted method of testing,
> • precise criteria independently established by orthopedic veterinary specialists that can be used to evaluate test results,
> • a database that is maintained and disclosed to the public by a reputable organization such as OFA,
> It will be difficult, if not impossible to claim that a dog has CD or doesn't have CD.
> 
> One of my favorite sayings comes to mind as I write these last lines. It goes something like this..."Just because someone says so, doesn't make it so", "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.".


__________________


----------



## good buddy

KrisE said:


> I guess you could have two certificates.. one is conformation for breeding
> another is pet quality, non breeding.


Isn't that the point of showing a dog to it's championship? There is a written breed standard for Havanese and dogs in the show ring are supposed to be judged to that standard. Judges show KNOW the standard and should be feeling those legs in the ring. Responsible breeders are already testing their dogs for possible genetic issues prior to breeding them and that would mean for puppies that become show dogs as well as puppies who will go into pet homes. There are no tests at this time for CD. I'm sure if the medical profession can establish one, then breeders would wish to test for it.


----------



## peluitohavanese

I cannot wait until there is an OFA approved test for CD. That should put an end to all of this nonsense once and for all. 
A Havanese will either pass the CD test or not, and I fully expect there will be some type of rating system such as in hips (excellent, good, fair, borderline, mild, severe). Wouldn't that be awesome?!!? No more need for hocus pocus soaps that can show the extremes (stick straight or badly bowed), but don't show anything in between, and of course, you just never know who is "evaluating" those soaps.


----------



## Tom King

An AKC Championship and a breed's Conformation Certificate are two separate things. Even Golden Retreivers have them. If being judged in the ring had anything to do with straight legs there wouldn't be so many Champions with bowed legs in a breed that calls for straight legs.

This is all old stuff. No need to rehash it. Either the dog has straight legs or it doesn't. If bowed legs are okay then just say it. Soap the legs down and show the pictures. If they are straight, it's apparent. 

Trying to sideline the issue with long diatribes about health testing and xrays is misleading. 

There is no excuse for not showing soaped pictures. Anyone buying a puppy has the right to ask for pictures and they should. If a breeder won't show what's under their dogs fur then they have something to hide.

In a breed where CD is a problem, any responsible breeder will do everything they can to avoid it and offer a money back guarantee if they should happen to produce it. But then CD is only "supposed" in the Havanese breed. 

Speaking out against producing it since the 1970s.


----------



## peluitohavanese

good buddy said:


> Isn't that the point of showing a dog to it's championship? There is a written breed standard for Havanese and dogs in the show ring are supposed to be judged to that standard. Judges show KNOW the standard and should be feeling those legs in the ring. Responsible breeders are already testing their dogs for possible genetic issues prior to breeding them and that would mean for puppies that become show dogs as well as puppies who will go into pet homes. There are no tests at this time for CD. I'm sure if the medical profession can establish one, then breeders would wish to test for it.


Absolutely! Some judges will check for straight legs. I know they do, because when they find them they have nice comments to make. But, the fact is, that they are judging for conformation and truly are only checking for toe-ing out or too close or far apart in the front while moving. 
Conformation is just that-how the dog conforms to the standard as written and approved by the parent club. 
Until there is a test for CD, it is absolutely irresponsible and a scare-tactic to be linking bad fronts to health issues. As any good scientist knows, you cannot prove anything without reliable data and statistics. So we are not even remotely there yet.


----------



## Tom King

Finding 113 genes in dogs with CD that were DIFFERENT than dogs with straight legs was pretty good science to me.


----------



## peluitohavanese

> If being judged in the ring had anything to do with straight legs there wouldn't be so many Champions with bowed legs in a breed that calls for straight legs.


Again, legs are only one part of breed type.



> Either the dog has straight legs or it doesn't. If bowed legs are okay then just say it. Soap the legs down and show the pictures.


I can see you are just a black and white type of guy Tom... no grey zones here huh? How straight is straight? How dysplastic is dysplastic? I guess a dog either has hip dysplasia or doesn't... well I don't believe fair to fair hip breedings should be done, and will only breed to goods or excellents.



> If they are straight, it's apparent.


Apparent???? you say apparent? THAT'S exactly where the problem lies with this whole soaping thing. It is in the eye of the beholder and is a very lame way to evaluate for CD. It is all we have to evaluate proper structure, but to say that it is definitive in a CD evaluation. NOT! KrisE took her girl to the vet and the ortho specialist did an x-ray. Period. He did not give her girl a bath at the docs office and soap her up and say..."ohh Kris, I see that your girl has CD...".



> Trying to sideline the issue with long diatribes about health testing and xrays is misleading.


 Health testing and x-rays go together - OFA hips, LCP, Elbows are done with xrays. Are those not health tests all Havanese are required to pass? I don't see us soaping up our dogs tushies to evaluate hips and to grade them as excellent or fair.



> There is no excuse for not showing soaped pictures. Anyone buying a puppy has the right to ask for pictures and they should. If a breeder won't show what's under their dogs fur then they have something to hide.


I and many HCA breeders proudly have soaps of our dogs posted on our websites and send soaps of puppies prior to placement.



> In a breed where CD is a problem, any responsible breeder will do everything they can to avoid it and offer a money back guarantee if they should happen to produce it. But then CD is only "supposed" in the Havanese breed.


And that is EXACTLY why I am advocating for an official OFA test. So that those who think they know more than an ortho veterinary specialist (who had to go to school for over 8 years to gain their knowledge and expertise), can put a sock in it, and let the experts do their job, and the rest of us move on with our breeding better dogs.


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## peluitohavanese

Once again... Tom... uke:



> Finding 113 genes in dogs with CD that were DIFFERENT than dogs with straight legs was pretty good science to me.


Who evaluated the dogs and determined they had straight legs? If it was a veterinary orthopedic specialist and x-rays were used, then I am sure that the data is out there somewhere for us to see. If they were dogs soaped by certain individuals and determined to have bad fronts by certain individuals, well.. case in point.

Drum rollllllllll..... :frusty: Oooh I remember that song..."bang you head...yeah..."

In David Letterman style.

The top 10 reasons why an xray is always better than soaps to evaluate CD....

10. Because if it's a health issue then we need xrays, if it's only a conformation issue we don't. 
9. Because I prefer OFA vets to grade my dogs' rads instead of your biased experts.
8. Because once the rads are evaluated the results are posted for all to see and compare to other breed CD ratings.
7. Because CD test results can be compared to other health testing results and put this Ockham shmockham syndrome baloney to bed once and for all.
6. Because responsible breeders don't want anything "apparent" about our Hav's health testing results - Just give us the facts ma'am just the facts.
5. Because my ortho vet specialist doesn't wanna give my dog a bath and laughs at the thought of doing so to evaluate CD in a dog.
4. Because AKC judges are qualified to determine if my Hav conforms to the standard, and the health specialists and OFA are qualified to evaluate my dog's health testing. 
3. Because like humans, Havanese bodies come in all cute little shapes and forms, and so do the little legs attached to those bodies.
2. Because all reputable and responsible HCA breeders are trying to breed better and healthier dogs and want to do it with reliable and true scientific data.

and ta-da...
1. Because OFA rads can't be photoshopped.


----------



## Kathy

And the Emmy goes to....Arlene!!! Right on sister, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head!!! THANK YOU!!! Kathy



peluitohavanese said:


> Once again... Tom... uke:
> 
> Who evaluated the dogs and determined they had straight legs? If it was a veterinary orthopedic specialist and x-rays were used, then I am sure that the data is out there somewhere for us to see. If they were dogs soaped by certain individuals and determined to have bad fronts by certain individuals, well.. case in point.
> 
> Drum rollllllllll..... :frusty: Oooh I remember that song..."bang you head...yeah..."
> 
> In David Letterman style.
> 
> The top 10 reasons why an xray is always better than soaps to evaluate CD....
> 
> 10. Because if it's a health issue then we need xrays, if it's only a conformation issue we don't.
> 9. Because I prefer OFA vets to grade my dogs' rads instead of your biased experts.
> 8. Because once the rads are evaluated the results are posted for all to see and compare to other breed cd ratings.
> 7. Because CD test results can be compared to other health testing results and put this Ockham shmockham syndrome baloney to bed once and for all.
> 6. Because responsible breeders don't want anything "apparent" about our Hav's health testing results - Just give us the facts ma'am just the facts.
> 5. Because my ortho vet specialist doesn't wanna give my dog a bath and laughs at the thought of doing so to evaluate cd in a dog.
> 4. Because AKC judges are qualified to determine if my Hav conforms to the standard, and the health specialists and OFA are qualified to evaluate my dog's health testing.
> 3. Because like humans, Havanese bodies come in all cute little shapes and forms.
> 2. Because all reputable and responsible HCA breeders are trying to breed better and healthier dogs and want to do it with reliable and true scientific data.
> 
> and ta-da...
> 1. Because OFA rads can't be photoshopped.


----------



## Kathy

Tom King said:


> quote from BeverlyA post #238: "If members of the HCA can't be trusted not to breed CD dogs who can be for heavens sake?:frusty:"
> 
> There's actually a fairly large group of us who are doing everything we can in that direction and we have nothing at all to do with the HCA anymore. It all started when a Conformation Certificate we were working on to have available to anyone with a Havanese was shouted down for being prejudiced against dogs with bowed legs.


This is HSD and we certainly don't need to go down this path again. Control and power is not what this is about after all.

There are many in your group that have said a picture of a soaped dog had CD, yet xrays showed otherwise.

Having something that is concrete and precise is what is needed and soaped pictures isn't it.


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## Havtahava

Great list, Arlene. I love #1.

And yes, Kathy is right; Tom has posted that he is a member of the HSDAA and his dogs are in their registry. I think it is annoying to keep taking us down this path.


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## BeverlyA

At the risk of sounding paranoid :deadhorse: I need to reiterate how much I admire and appreciate the responsible breeders of our precious Havanese, both HCA members and not, that do everything right, to put it simply, even when no one is going to know but them.

I guess I am so emotional about this issue because I think it's so important and so serious. 

Thank you Arlene for all your information and insight! 
I love this breed and I'm always trying to learn whatever I can about them.
Beverly


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## peluitohavanese

No one messes with our Havvies:suspicious: 

:whoo: thanks. I like number 1 and also number 3


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## JASHavanese

Tom King said:


> There's actually a fairly large group of us who are doing everything we can in that direction and we have nothing at all to do with the HCA anymore. It all started when a Conformation Certificate we were working on to have available to anyone with a Havanese was shouted down for being prejudiced against dogs with bowed legs.


Excuse me for injecting some *truths* here. There was a vet working with Dr. Murphy and OFA to have a standard xray for the front legs and was to be graded on a 1-10 scale, 1 being the worst. 
Ah, but that's absolute, isn't it? Soaps aren't, now are they? Fur can be wrapped to make legs appear different and photoshop is a great tool for some when it suits their needs and believe me, some are skilled although not skilled enough to those of us who do extensive artwork with programs and know what to look for. Imagine that.
Then along came the decision to make Havanese not Havanese (but now they're Havanese again. Gee Tom, why the changes) and say that some of them were a totally different breed and that group that includes the person who was working along with OFA on the standardized xray went with the soaped people. :suspicious:
*Imagine that. Going from science and an absolute to throwing it out the window. Now what would make someone do that? *
I saw the prototype of the xray and the Hav world would have done the same thing they've done with every other test. Welcomed it with open arms.
And since I'm talking about health testing, OFA says that the HAVANESE breed is one of the most tested breeds in actual numbers, not percentages and we're way the heck down the list in actual numbers of dogs registered so that's one VERY strong statement that shows how dedicated HAVANESE breeders are.


----------



## JASHavanese

peluitohavanese said:


> Once again... Tom... uke:
> 
> Who evaluated the dogs and determined they had straight legs? If it was a veterinary orthopedic specialist and x-rays were used, then I am sure that the data is out there somewhere for us to see. If they were dogs soaped by certain individuals and determined to have bad fronts by certain individuals, well.. case in point.
> 
> Drum rollllllllll..... :frusty: Oooh I remember that song..."bang you head...yeah..."
> 
> In David Letterman style.
> 
> The top 10 reasons why an xray is always better than soaps to evaluate CD....
> 
> 10. Because if it's a health issue then we need xrays, if it's only a conformation issue we don't.
> 9. Because I prefer OFA vets to grade my dogs' rads instead of your biased experts.
> 8. Because once the rads are evaluated the results are posted for all to see and compare to other breed cd ratings.
> 7. Because CD test results can be compared to other health testing results and put this Ockham shmockham syndrome baloney to bed once and for all.
> 6. Because responsible breeders don't want anything "apparent" about our Hav's health testing results - Just give us the facts ma'am just the facts.
> 5. Because my ortho vet specialist doesn't wanna give my dog a bath and laughs at the thought of doing so to evaluate cd in a dog.
> 4. Because AKC judges are qualified to determine if my Hav conforms to the standard, and the health specialists and OFA are qualified to evaluate my dog's health testing.
> 3. Because like humans, Havanese bodies come in all cute little shapes and forms.
> 2. Because all reputable and responsible HCA breeders are trying to breed better and healthier dogs and want to do it with reliable and true scientific data.
> 
> and ta-da...
> 1. Because OFA rads can't be photoshopped.


A song, 'bang your head'? Wazzat?
And to the rest of your post, you go girl.
:first::first::first::first::first::first::first:


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## JASHavanese

Tom King said:


> Finding 113 genes in dogs with CD that were DIFFERENT than dogs with straight legs was pretty good science to me.


Maybe you should study mitral valve and heart murmurs too? 
Since you're sooooooooooooooooo into the health of the havanese, tell me, do you think a stud that has produced heart problems should be bred?


----------



## JASHavanese

hedygs said:


> Jan my little Domino had a pretty pronounced underbite. Made me love him more with those quirky teeth. We called him our "cheshire dog" because it's true, it looked like he was always smiling. I miss those darn teeth and the special dog attached to them.


I can feel the love you shared just in the words on a simle flat screen. I still miss my pom and wonder if we ever really get over it?


----------



## peluitohavanese

Bang Your Head, by Quiet Riot....ya had to be there... LOL!
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/quiet-riot/bang-your-head.html


----------



## Carefulove

JASHavanese said:


> ...I still miss my pom and wonder if we ever really get over it?


You make sure to let me know when you find that answer, cause I am still wondering...


----------



## JASHavanese

peluitohavanese said:


> Bang Your Head, by Quiet Riot....ya had to be there... LOL!
> http://www.lyricsdepot.com/quiet-riot/bang-your-head.html


Hm I read the words but don't remember it. Sing a few bars for me and I might :biggrin1:


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## peluitohavanese

:drum::rockon::dance: "Bang your head! ".... how's my singing?
LOL LOL!


----------



## peluitohavanese

Okay you asked for it. Here it is...


----------



## JASHavanese

Carefulove said:


> You make sure to let me know when you find that answer, cause I am still wondering...


Zury, I don't think we really ever get fully over it. My husband and I were out a few days ago and a woman was holding a pom that looked just like mine and that dog was determined to get our attention. My husband and I both teared up


----------



## hedygs

I know I won't forget him nor will you forget your special friends. While the pain diminshes and my longing for him isn't as acute, I think of him often and the very, very special bond we had. He was be in my heart forever.


----------



## JASHavanese

peluitohavanese said:


> :drum::rockon::dance: "Bang your head! ".... how's my singing?
> LOL LOL!


Do you really want an answer? ound:
Karaoke here we come!


----------



## peluitohavanese

Did ya watch the video? It's oollllldddd


----------



## JASHavanese

peluitohavanese said:


> Okay you asked for it. Here it is...


Ah ok, I've heard it. Whoa that's some video to watch :jaw:


----------



## JASHavanese

peluitohavanese said:


> Did ya watch the video? It's oollllldddd


LOL yes, knock off posting that thing. I'm going to have nightmares. I was watching it through my fingers as you were posting


----------



## JASHavanese

hedygs said:


> I know I won't forget him nor will you forget your special friends. While the pain diminshes and my longing for him isn't as acute, I think of him often and the very, very special bond we had. He was be in my heart forever.


I'm sending you a hug :hug:


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## peluitohavanese

It was back in the heavy metal days.... don't like the video but do like the song. Kind of reminds me about what I wanna do - bang my head on the wall - everytime I hear this hocus pocus theory about the straight legs.


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## karin117

Arlene, all of this "bang your head" made me wonder if you live with teenagers...but now I see that it is YOU as a teenager...I will try not to analys it...
Me, who is from Sweden, ABBA land, think this have something to do with the whole leg question.


----------



## JASHavanese

peluitohavanese said:


> It was back in the heavy metal days.... don't like the video but do like the song. Kind of reminds me about what I wanna do - bang my head on the wall - everytime I hear this hocus pocus theory about the straight legs.


Wait till we put some pillows on the wall for you. You bang your head and I'll put on my high boots to wade through the um, stuff.


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## peluitohavanese

Ahhh yes I LOVE ABBA! My litter born on January 3rd was named after ABBA. It is the "Mamma Mia" litter and the pups are Super Trouper, Waterloo, Chiquitita, Dancing Queen and Voulez Vous


----------



## karin117

I hope to get a good look at:


----------



## peluitohavanese

OOh you are talking about Dancing Queen that is going to Monica of Tequilaville's?


----------



## peluitohavanese

> Maybe you should study mitral valve and heart murmurs too?
> Since you're sooooooooooooooooo into the health of the havanese, tell me, do you think a stud that has produced heart problems should be bred?


Uh Oh...I can see it already....shampoo bottle in hand ready to soap Havanese hearts...


----------



## peluitohavanese

*Chodrodysplasia (CD) and the Veterinary Practitioner - Minnesota Malamute Club*

Here is an excerpt from the Minnesota Malamute Club website



> Radiographing Test Litters
> 
> Test litters are normally radiographed at four to six weeks of age. A high-detail A/P projection of the distal radius and ulna of one leg is needed of each puppy in the litter. Several puppies may be included on one sheet of film, thus reducing costs for the owner. Utilization of lead or leaded vinyl/rubber sheets as film blockers (or close collimation) will avoid radiation fogging on multiple exposures. The film should be clearly marked with the owner's name, name of sire, name of dam, number of puppies in the litter, and date of birth of the puppies.
> Any dead puppies that have been preserved by freezing should be radiographed at this time. These are frequently inconclusive due to age, however, and it should be understood they may not be included in statistical evaluation unless chondrodysplasia is clearly evident. [reference 8]
> 
> Radiographs must be evaluated by a professional who is familiar with chondrodysplasia, and the following information should be included.
> 
> Owner's name and address
> Sire's name
> Dam's name
> Status of control animal (chondrodysplastic or recessive carrier)
> Number of puppies in litter and date of birth
> Number of puppies x-rayed and date of x-rays
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Back to the cover page of "Chondrodysplasia and the Veterinary Practitioner" or
> 
> Back to the Minnesota Malamute Club Home Page
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Linda Dowdy
> Bethel, Minnesota
> Comments or questions? E-mail me at [email protected]
> 
> Copyright © 2003 Linda Dowdy, last revision 030406


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## peluitohavanese

*More information on Malamutes in Minnesota*

If you'd like to read more about this, here is the link http://www.minnesotamalamuteclub.com/brdprobs/chdvet.htm

Here is another interesting fact. Of course, these guys are doing soaps....



> Chondrodysplasia and the Veterinary Practioner - Minnesota Malamute Club
> 
> Phenotype
> 
> The chondrodysplastic Malamute displays in varying degrees the following phenotypic chaacteristics.
> 
> Excessively shortened front limbs with various degrees of bowing and deformity, especially the radius and ulna
> A topline that slopes from the pelvis down to the withers
> 
> Some chondrodysplastic Malamutes display a severe degree of deformity while others display almost no visible characteristics. It is important to note that the recessive carrier genotype displays no physical identifying characteristics, being completely normal in appearance.


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## peluitohavanese

*These guys have got their act together*

http://www.minnesotamalamuteclub.com/brdprobs/xrays.htm

Check it out:



> Radiographic
> 
> Chondrodysplastic puppies, up to twelve weeks of age, are readily identifiable by radiographs of the carpal joint. Although all endochondral bones in the chondrodysplastic animal are affected, the condition is most apparent at the distal end of the ulna. In a normal puppy the distal metaphysis of the ulna appears V-shaped and evenly opaque, consistent with normal ossification and development.
> 
> In the chondrodysplastic puppy, the distal metaphysis of the ulna is distinctly flattened and irregular, with a blunt widening of the distal diaphysis. There is variable evidence of normal ossification. The physis is increased in width with an irregular metaphyseal margin. [reference 2]
> 
> After twelve weeks of age the joint begins to change. Some adult chondrodysplastics radiographically display relatively normal ossification. Therefore radiographs should not be assumed as a definitive diagnosis after twelve weeks of age. Radiographic evidence is most consistent between five and twelve weeks of age. [reference 2]
> 
> Radiographs of chondrodysplastic and normal animals have been placed on separate pages. You can click on the thumbnail images below to view them in much more detail.
> 
> It is important to note that the sloping topline of many chondrodysplastic animals is a manifestation of alteration in conformation of the limbs and is not related to changes in the axial skeleton. The varying degree of topline slope is a direct result of the malformation which develops in the front limbs. The tubular bones at the distal radius and ulna are the most severely affected and growth retardation is excessive. The bones of the hind limbs are much less severely affected and achieve a more normal conformation. Some chondrodysplastic animals may display near normal conformation. Diagnosis of genotype in such cases must then be made by either test-mating the animal or by blood work.


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## KellyA

Wow, I just read all 32 pages of this tread as I was directed over here by Lunastar. We are getting our puppy on Aug 9 as a pet(no desire to show/agility etc...). The breeder breeds for show and will give us the pup the show people pass on. One of the pups (the sweetest one in the litter) is a male who has ?legs that are not as straight as she would like them to be for a show pup. I'll email her as ask for soap pics but feel like even if it is CD that we would take the pup. I've gained some great info reading here, thanks for sharing.

KellyA


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## MopTop Havanese

So strange that this post came up again today-
I was just going to give you all an update on little Mousie. I got to see her today and she is doing FANTASTIC!! She is so full of life and spunk. She runs like the wind. She is sweet as can be. Hopped right up on the couch to snuggle with my dh. She walks with a slight limp, which I believe is more becaues her bowed leg is 'shorter' than her straight leg. BUT you would never ever suspect anything was 'wrong' with her. She is with a family that loves her to pieces, and she will always hold a special place in my heart. I am kicking myself now that I didn't take a pic of her while she was here for you all to see. 
SO- bowed leg or not, Mouse is a perfect little Hav living a perfect life with her perfect forever family. I couldn't ask for anything more.


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## mckennasedona

Katie, that's great to hear. Too bad you didn't get a photo of little Mouse. I always figured she was perfect. A few really wonderful people I know walk with limps. Nothing wrong with that!


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## marjrc

Katie, how reassuring! It's great that little Mouse is so happy in her forever home and that her leg isn't causing any problems whatsoever. 

And honestly, NO PICTURES??!?!! :Cry: What were you thinking, girl??!! :fish:


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## ama0722

Katie that is great news to hear how well she is doing. I also want to bop you for new pictures though!!!


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## Missy

Oh Wow, I am so glad to read about Mouse! I would also love to hear a progress report on Preston. Paige? Do you check in?


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## leelynnsmith

I have a new pup 12 weeks old. Just noticed her rear legs are bowed. The vet said she was fine. Should I be concerned?


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## suzanne0202

*I'm so glad he has you!*

That is so sad..poor little guy. I'm glad he has you!


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## Mom2Izzo

I have a question: If Hav's front legs are bowed like this does this automatically mean they have CD? If it is CD and they have bowed legs will they go on to have other health related issues along with the bowing? If they were going to have other problems along with the bowed legs at what point would they start showing up?


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## ama0722

Nicole- just from everything I read and heard, it is unclear. Plenty of dogs (other breeds as well) have curved fronts with no liver or eye issues associated with them. I have also known dogs with very straight fronts to have eye issues and liver issues. If I had a dog with CD, I would probably test the other conditions but then again, I have 3 dogs with 3 straight fronts and I have given them all a blood panel and a cerf check too.


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## Pattie

Paige,

My heart breaks for Preston, but he is so lucky to have you, who is taking such wonderful care of him. I, too, think a buggy is a great idea. I use one all the time at shows.

I, too, hope your breeder is not continuing to breed Preston's sire and dam. Sometimes these things happen with the best planning and goals, but doing the right thing by not breeding the pair again should not be a difficult decision. It is also good that they want to help defray the costs of the surgery. Good on you all.

My best thoughts to you, Paige, and thanks for bringing this to light as it is so very important.


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## KarmaKat

leelynnsmith said:


> I have a new pup 12 weeks old. Just noticed her rear legs are bowed. The vet said she was fine. Should I be concerned?


Tybee's rear legs used to bow. The vet(s) check his patellas at each visit. They are fine. We are thinking it may have been muscular - growth spurts, slippery floors, etc. I put rubber mats on the one slippery floor, and he went to a good groomer who did a great job getting hair between pads trimmed (It can be slippery walking on hair instead of pads.) He is now apx 16 weeks old and I dont notice it as much. Of course it could be his hair is getting longer and covering it? It really worried me at first, but his knees are fine at each vet visit and he is such a happy guy - I just dont worry as much now.

Good luck


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## Suzi

Havtahava said:


> It _is_ good for everyone to learn. Unfortunately, there are many people who use this kind of information to malign breeders. You can't always predict how a puppy will turn out, and I've heard of a few straight-legged dogs producing CD. Now, if the breeder knows about this and intentionally breeds the parents anyway, then I think they have put themselves in a position to have their names out there as a warning to potential puppy buyers. (I don't think that is the case with your breeder, thankfully.)


 What is CD written name?


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## Tom King

Chondrodysplasia. This name was coined by the Malamute people back in the '70s if I'm remembering correctly. Previously, it was just called dwarfism. 

In July of 2009, there was a genetics study that found the genes that cause it. It was not a study for the benefit of dogs, but rather they were using the canine genome to find it for the benefit of humans. They took DNA from some large number of dogs at a dogshow. The dogs owners willingly gave the DNA, but didn't know what the test was about. The only reason Havanese were included was that they had a copy of one of the old Standards that said the Havanese was a short legged dog. They tried to take DNA from any of the short legged dogs, as well as some normal ones. 

Short legged doesn't mean relative to a Borzoi. It means the distance from the floor to the elbow is less than from elbow to top of withers. Often the short legged dog is low on leg too-bottom of chest comes down below the elbow.

They found the genes to be present in all parents that produced it in dogs to be the "short legged" gene, known as FGF4.

Both parents have to be carriers for FGF4, and the affected individual gets a copy of the gene put in the wrong place on their DNA strand-called a retrogene.

The location for the FGF4 genes was in the same spot that the TAMU study found the 113 differenent genes that the CD dogs in the study had versus the straight legged dogs. The study that identified the FGF4 gene had no knowledge of the TAMU study.

As far as I know now, there is no commercial test available for the FGF4 gene yet. 

You can do a Google search for FGF4 gene, and find all sorts of information about it.


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## Suzi

JASHavanese said:


> The pictures are heartbreaking but I do have a suggestion. I saw someone's pictures of their dog's legs and they were similar. They gave their hav a lot of egg yolks and I'm trying to remember how many a day. I think it was 3 yolks a day. They have pictures of the front legs taken over time and as the months went on, the legs straightened. I'd give that a try and see if it helps.
> This thread is interesting for a couple of reasons. One is that you didn't see the curving start until he was almost a year old. Breeders normally soap the sire and dam before breeding to check the legs and make sure they aren't bowed. Then they soap the puppies to make sure the legs are straight. Were you shown pictures of the soaped parents? I have soaps of my dogs on my website because I feel it's important information for puppy buyers.
> I'm wondering if the cd this dog has is environmental because it showed itself so late. I've seen pictures of puppies with cd and it showed when they were just weeks old.
> It won't do any good to say health test, health test, health test, because right now the best tool we have for cd is our eyes with soaped pictures. I understand they're working on an xray that can be listed on the OFA website to show you if the parents have bowed or straight legs, or to what degree, as I believe they're not using a pass fail system but a rating system instead.
> This is a really emotional subject and understandably so. It's easy to see how high the emotions run reading this thread but naming the breeder isn't a good idea. If this breeder has bred 20 dogs and all except one has straight legs, do they sputer the dogs? I probably would, and a few years from now we'll probably find that would have been the wrong thing to do.
> Up until a couple of months ago we weren't provided with the results of the 2006 TAMU study and had no clue that environmental issues could cause cd. A past president of the HCA got tired of the secrecy and went to Dr Murphy and got the report directly from him so this is all new (except to those Dr Murphy reported to) to us. You'll still find many websites with erroneous information about the heredity factor of cd which is another reason this subject is so high charged emotionally.
> We have pieces of the puzzle, but not the full picture. Hopefully soon we'll have a lot more information, but I don't think cd will ever be eradicated in our breed if the environment plays a part in it.


 I was just reading up on the lack of cholesterol in dogs with CD . And one person recommended one egg yolk in powdered form a day. It was interesting to read that if you start do not stop I figure what cant hurt.


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## Suzi

Tom King said:


> Chondrodysplasia. This name was coined by the Malamute people back in the '70s if I'm remembering correctly. Previously, it was just called dwarfism.
> 
> In July of 2009, there was a genetics study that found the genes that cause it. It was not a study for the benefit of dogs, but rather they were using the canine genome to find it for the benefit of humans. They took DNA from some large number of dogs at a dogshow. The dogs owners willingly gave the DNA, but didn't know what the test was about. The only reason Havanese were included was that they had a copy of one of the old Standards that said the Havanese was a short legged dog. They tried to take DNA from any of the short legged dogs, as well as some normal ones.
> 
> Short legged doesn't mean relative to a Borzoi. It means the distance from the floor to the elbow is less than from elbow to top of withers. Often the short legged dog is low on leg too-bottom of chest comes down below the elbow.
> 
> They found the genes to be present in all parents that produced it in dogs to be the "short legged" gene, known as FGF4.
> 
> Both parents have to be carriers for FGF4, and the affected individual gets a copy of the gene put in the wrong place on their DNA strand-called a retrogene.
> 
> The location for the FGF4 genes was in the same spot that the TAMU study found the 113 differenent genes that the CD dogs in the study had versus the straight legged dogs. The study that identified the FGF4 gene had no knowledge of the TAMU study.
> 
> As far as I know now, there is no commercial test available for the FGF4 gene yet.
> 
> You can do a Google search for FGF4 gene, and find all sorts of information about it.


 I have spent the afternoon reading a study it is complex to me. From what I could get from it that a dog can be asymmetrical and have one leg bowed and not dwarfed also have other symptoms like liver, heart , eyes, and skin problems . I am not sure if I read it all right. It was interesting that a dog with only one leg affected the cataract developed in the same side as the CD.


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## JASHavanese

Suzi said:


> I have spent the afternoon reading a study it is complex to me. From what I could get from it that a dog can be asymmetrical and have one leg bowed and not dwarfed also have other symptoms like liver, heart , eyes, and skin problems . I am not sure if I read it all right. It was interesting that a dog with only one leg affected the cataract developed in the same side as the CD.


That study also said that CD could be caused by the environment. For every one dog you can find with an affected problem on the bowed side, you can find at least the same number that shows something with the other side.


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## Suzi

JASHavanese said:


> That study also said that CD could be caused by the environment. For every one dog you can find with an affected problem on the bowed side, you can find at least the same number that shows something with the other side.


 I don't understand that? From what I read their is a large number of havanese that have defective bone structure I was amazed how many out of the study from a collage in California. What do you mean by environment? I am worried I had Maddie jumping before she should have is that environment?


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## Suzi

I may have just come across a good site but from what I have been resurching the Havanese silk dog club has alot of good things happing with our breed. The structure and genetics of the dog is being breed to try to control more of the problems the breed is having . What do you guys think about that?
I even rean that the look is different. Necks are longer coat is different bone structure ect.


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## krandall

CD CANNOT be "environmental", as it is caused by a specific gene. Bowed legs, or more often, ONE bowed leg CAN be caused by injury when a puppy is allowed to jump or fall from a height before his or her joints have matured.


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## JASHavanese

Suzi said:


> I don't understand that? From what I read their is a large number of havanese that have defective bone structure I was amazed how many out of the study from a collage in California. What do you mean by environment? I am worried I had Maddie jumping before she should have is that environment?


A LARGE number of Havanese with defective bone structure????????? You're reading the wrong material  In 7 or 8 years I've seen ONE dog in person with a bowed front. 
Who knows what they meant with the word environment. They didn't elaborate. A guess would be an early jumper, a dog who has been through some type of trauma, etc.
With jumping, you wait until the bones are fully formed before letting them do a lot of jumps. If you're training her then have a very tiny jump that she can use just to get used to the idea that when she gets there she jumps over the item


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## JASHavanese

krandall said:


> CD CANNOT be "environmental", as it is caused by a specific gene. Bowed legs, or more often, ONE bowed leg CAN be caused by injury when a puppy is allowed to jump or fall from a height before his or her joints have matured.


Ah, then you trashed the TAMU study also. Most of us did


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## JASHavanese

Suzi said:


> I may have just come across a good site but from what I have been resurching the Havanese silk dog club has alot of good things happing with our breed. The structure and genetics of the dog is being breed to try to control more of the problems the breed is having . What do you guys think about that?
> I even rean that the look is different. Necks are longer coat is different bone structure ect.


See my dogs? Some of them are from silk lines. Can you pick out which ones? If what you say is accurate, why are silk dogs being shown in a Havanese show ring and why do they look like a Havanese? And less health problems?


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## Suzi

JASHavanese said:


> Ah, then you trashed the TAMU study also. Most of us did


 where is the TAMU study Who did it?
In Maddies case she has one bone that grew faster and longer than the other that bone is curved. The doctor said it was a malformation. The other bone has a injury. So I guess one is environment and the other is genetic.?
I think it is important to teach our folks with their puppys to really watch out for jumping . I had no idea I was hurting Maddie . Also slippery floors, stairs couches. Warming up before exercise. Our little havanese love jumping running ect it is hard to hold them back. I am trying build Zoeys legs slowly. I bought rubber pads for the kitchen floor. We walk before a good run . My vet said dogs were not meant to be under 15 lbs and that is why toy breeds have leg problems.


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## JASHavanese

Suzi said:


> where is the TAMU study Who did it?
> In Maddies case she has one bone that grew faster and longer than the other that bone is curved. The doctor said it was a malformation. The other bone has a injury. So I guess one is environment and the other is genetic.?
> I think it is important to teach our folks with their puppys to really watch out for jumping . I had no idea I was hurting Maddie . Also slippery floors, stairs couches. Warming up before exercise. Our little havanese love jumping running ect it is hard to hold them back. I am trying build Zoeys legs slowly. I bought rubber pads for the kitchen floor. We walk before a good run . My vet said dogs were not meant to be under 15 lbs and that is why toy breeds have leg problems.


I don't have a clue where the TAMU study is anymore and have no reason to look for it as most of the Havanese world feels the same.
Our breed does love to jump and I agree with you that we need to watch that.You're doing good things for Zoey. 
Bulldogs weigh over 15 pounds. Have you seen their legs?


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## Suzi

JASHavanese said:


> See my dogs? Some of them are from silk lines. Can you pick out which ones? If what you say is accurate, why are silk dogs being shown in a Havanese show ring and why do they look like a Havanese? And less health problems?


 I can not tell by those pictures. I am sure silk dogs are still Havanese they are just under a more controlled breeding environment. I do not see why they would not be in shows . 
All I did was read about the breeding program. I had no idea that they are not Havanese. From what I read the club just wants to improve what is happening to the Havanese. I liked their philosophy. If all havanese breeders were as controlled of a club would that not be a good thing? 
I suppose their are political things involved that I am not aware of . And if that is true I am sorry that is happening.:grouphug:


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## Julie

search for breed split/hsd stuff on here Suzi....then you'll see the whole picture. It was a bad deal and I for one don't want to re-hash that. It comes with a warning however........pull up a chair/recliner and have aspirins and a stiff drink in hand! ound:


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## Tom King

Actually, there was good science out of the TAMU study. They found that the CD dogs had a cluster of 113 genes on a particular chromosome that were different (not present) than the straight legged dogs in the study. This location was later verified as significant because it's the same location on the same chromosome where the FGF4 chromosome is found by the more recent, Ostrander study. The study that found the FGF4 gene, had no knowledge of the TAMU study until after they had finished theirs. The location and effect of the FGF4 gene has been known for a long time, but only with the later study was DNA taken from a large number of dogs and correlations made. I'm sure there are many who want to keep this swept under the rug too.

Here's the link to the Ostrander study: http://www.science20.com/news_artic..._and_what_it_may_tell_us_about_human_dwarfism

We were told that included in the 835 dogs were some Havanese, and that some were homozygous for the FGF4 gene, and some were not. They took DNA from dogs at dog shows.

Some of the other genes in that cluster of 113 genes have been found to be responsible for 2 different heart problems, and two other eye problems. Some of the Collie breeds now have a test for a heart problem as a result of those genes being identified.

The part about improperly metabolizing cholesterol -the egg business-was just a theory, since it was known that humans with dwarfism metabolize cholesterol differently than the rest of us. Unfortunately, since the gene has now been identified, it turns out that is simply another symptom, and not a cause. Nothing about cholesterol, and feeding eggs has ever been proven one way or the other to have any real effect.

The part about being caused by injury, was just taken from an off the cuff comment by the team leader of the TAMU study. The study that identified the FGF4 gene found that almost all affected had the FGF4 genes.

There is no commercial test for the FGF4 gene yet. It will require funding to have a test set up, but it wouldn't be more than a few thousand dollars since the gene and its location is now known.

In order for an individual to be affected, its parents have to both carry the FGF4 gene, and the individual gets a copy of it placed on the wrong spot on one of its chromosomes. This is similar to the effect a retrogene has in Down Syndrome. This is the reason it can stay hidden in a population, and only spring up once in a while. The same thing happens in any of the short legged breeds. If you read their standards, you see that they call for straight legs. The ones of those who do good in the show ring have straight legs, but you see many others, more poorly bred, with bowed legs. That's why many people think that all Corgis, and Bulldogs have bowed legs. The FGF4 gene is homozygous in the short legged breeds, since its the gene that produces short legs.

Here's the link to the TAMU study: http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/98/5/510.abstract


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## Julie

*


Tom King;370666
In order for an individual to be affected said:



Tom-with all due respect,I think you are off base on your autism theory. I have a son with autism and all his chromosones were extensively tested and so was both mine and my husband's in Rochester Mn. at the Mayo Clinic by a leading genetics doctor.

If you think you know the cause of autism.....there are millions out here needing to know,along with 1/110 and 1/70 new cases in boys each year.Also--all the top leading doctors in the country.You could be a rich man and not dabble in dogs anymore.

Actually--there have been studies done in children with autism disorder on the spectrum with what they believe to be linked back to environmental causes.
To me--this doesn't have a darn thing to do with a dog --but since you brought up autism....I felt the need to address it. I'm no expert-by a long shot.....but I have been paying attention at my son's doctor visits.

Click to expand...

*


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## Tom King

So sorry. I just thought about my mistake and came back to edit. I should have said Down Syndrome. I'm going to edit my original post and will delete this one if you want to delete yours. One of the reasons I much prefer forums to elists, in that you can edit.

Again, I'm sorry. I was watching TV and had a small panic attack realizing my mistake and that it could have caused hurt feelings.


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## krandall

JASHavanese said:


> Ah, then you trashed the TAMU study also. Most of us did


Huh? That's not what I said or what I think.


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## Suzi

I think I miss read the study I thought it said 44 per cent had bowed legs Maybe they had that many Havanese that had bowed legs . I think It said out of the 44 per cent that had it so many had this and that. I do not understand why that study would not be important . I hope with the new money for research this study will continue.


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## krandall

Suzi said:


> I think I miss read the study I thought it said 44 per cent had bowed legs Maybe they had that many Havanese that had bowed legs . I think It said out of the 44 per cent that had it so many had this and that. I do not understand why that study would not be important . I hope with the new money for research this study will continue.


I truly believe that CD is a problem in the breed... haven't been involved with the breed for that long, and I have CERTAINLY seen it in real life! But I don't believe it's anything LIKE 44%!!! Go back and read it again. I think you misunderstood something.


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## Julie

I don't think CD is as big a problem as it is made to sound. I think people have scared others into believing it is. 

Given Kodi was your first dog Karen....I am shocked that you would make such blanket statements about IT COULD NOT BE ENVIRONMENTAL....because my thought is....how would YOU know? I'm not trying to make you angry,but you are not a breeder and certainly would not be concidered an expert in havanese breeding. 

Where would you have seen a havanese with CD? Isn't your breeder Tom King? He swears straight legs for years in his close line breeding......


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## krandall

Julie said:


> I don't think CD is as big a problem as it is made to sound. I think people have scared others into believing it is.
> 
> Given Kodi was your first dog Karen....I am shocked that you would make such blanket statements about IT COULD NOT BE ENVIRONMENTAL....because my thought is....how would YOU know? I'm not trying to make you angry,but you are not a breeder and certainly would not be concerned an expert in havanese breeding.
> 
> Where would you have seen a havanese with CD? Isn't your breeder Tom King? He swears straight legs for years in his close line breeding......


1. While I haven't been involved in Havs for long, I HAVE done a lot of reading. I've also met a lot of Havs, both at Hav play dates and at our training center. There are lots of poorly bred ones there (as well as well bred ones!) because, unfortunately, we have a puppy mill outlet right down the street from us. Probably more pet dogs in this area come from "Pick A Pup" than come from breeders. I haven't seen lots of these dogs, but I HAVE seen a couple.

2. By definition, a genetic abnormality doesn't come from the environment. We KNOW the gene that causes CD. That DOESN'T mean (as I said before) that it's not possible for a dog to develop short or bowed legs from an environmental cause... (For instance, I don't know what happens to a dog with Rickets, but we know it causes bowed legs in people) But this would not be CD. I've also seen all sorts of leg abnormalities in various animals caused by damage to unclosed growth plates. It stands to reason that this could cause abnormal leg growth in Havs as well. But this would NOT be CD either. It would be bowed legs for another reason. Tom has also explained that the egg yolk/cholesterol thing has been unsubstantiated.

3. While, of course I haven't seen all the dogs Tom and Pam have produced, I HAVE seen, and can tell you with certainty, that none of the dogs in their current breeding stock nor any in Kodi's litter shows signs of CD. If you don't believe that, you can do what I did and go check them out for yourself... I'm sure you would be welcome! I believe soaps of both of Kodi's parents are on the King's website, (if not, I know they have them, as I have hard copy of both) and while I was there, we soaped and examined all the puppies together.

You didn't make me angry, Julie, and these are legitimate questions. But I don't think you need to be a breeder to be (or become) informed about issues that are important to your breed. Conversely, it is blatantly apparent that there are many "breeders" who churn out puppies without having a clue, or worse, even caring.

Because I AM VERY interested in performance, whether it be horses or dogs, sound conformation is a top priority for me. I have never bred horses either (though I did work on a breeding farm for a number of years) but I can still tell you with certainty what type of conformation is important for various performance activities, and what conformation flaws will relegate some horses to nothing more than back yard pets, suitable for no more than light pleasure riding. (or worse, in the world of horses, where the animals are awfully expensive pets... dog meat) Most good trainers and SERIOUS riders can do the same.

I happen to believe that we should ALL become informed on these subjects, if only for our own sake. In a world where we KNOW there are many people producing poor quality Havs, a "good reputation" as a breeder is a RGEAT place to start. But I don't want to depend on that. I want to have a clear idea of what is important to me in an animal I may spend a lot of money and a TREMENDOUS amount of time on. (to say nothing of the emotional issues that go along with a dog with heath problems)

There are certainly breeds that have worse track records in terms of health. As darling as they are, I wouldn't touch a Cavalier King Charles with a ten foot pole. And Boxers often die young of cancer these days. My brother has had two blind Collies from two different, well-respected breeders. But it pays to know the possible problems in the breed you are involved with, even if we are lucky that the problems are LESS common than they are in some other breeds. That's the only way to keep them less common!

Breeders should do their job by learning as much as they can, keeping abreast of breaking studies in the field, testing and breeding conscientiously. Puppy buyers can ALSO do their part by knowing what the potential problems are and buying smart... avoiding those breeders who are NOT doing what they should be and NOT just falling for a cute face (aren't they all!) or buying based on convenient location.

In terms of CD in specific, if you (and I don't mean "you" specifically, Julie, I mean the buying public) don't believe it's a problem, then go ahead buy from breeders who slough it off as "no big deal" or put their heads in the sand. If, as I do, you believe it's something that breeders should be trying to remove from the gene pool, buy from a breeder who makes it a priority to breed for straight legs, and will prove it.

I think I hit on all of your questions.


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## Julie

Tom King said:


> ]
> 
> In order for an individual to be affected, its parents have to both carry the FGF4 gene, and the individual gets a copy of it placed on the wrong spot on one of its chromosomes. This is similar to the effect a retrogene has in Down Syndrome. This is the reason it can stay hidden in a population, and only spring up once in a while. The same thing happens in any of the short legged breeds. If you read their standards, you see that they call for straight legs.[/QUOTE
> Actually Tom this is not accurate about it being similar to children with down syndrome.
> 
> I have a cousin who at advanced ages (both man and wife) (higher risk) had a baby girl. They were in their late 40's and early 50's. Age causes a tremendously higher risk for downs. Down Syndrome is actually on Chromosone 21...and it duplicates during cell seperation.
> 
> Here is info from Mayo Clinic to prove to you that the most *common form of down syndrome is not handed down or "carried" by either parent.*From Mayo Clinic*
> *Causes*
> 
> In humans, the egg cells and sperm cells have 23 chromosomes. The rest of your cells normally contain 23 pairs of chromosomes - one from your father and one from your mother. Kids with Down syndrome usually have three copies of chromosome 21 - called trisomy 21 - instead of two copies.
> The genetic basis of Down syndromeHuman cells normally contain 23 pairs of chromosomes. One chromosome in each pair comes from your father, the other from your mother.
> 
> The cause of Down syndrome is one of three types of abnormal cell division involving chromosome 21. All three abnormalities result in extra genetic material from chromosome 21, which is responsible for the characteristic features and developmental problems of Down syndrome. The three genetic variations that can cause Down syndrome include:
> 
> Trisomy 21. More than 90 percent of cases of Down syndrome are caused by trisomy 21. A child with trisomy 21 has three copies of chromosome 21 - instead of the usual two copies - in all of his or her cells. This form of Down syndrome is caused by abnormal cell division during the development of the sperm cell or the egg cell.
> Mosaic Down syndrome. In this rare form of Down syndrome, children have some cells with an extra copy of chromosome 21. This mosaic of normal and abnormal cells is caused by abnormal cell division after fertilization.
> Translocation Down syndrome. Down syndrome can also occur when part of chromosome 21 becomes attached (translocated) onto another chromosome, before or at conception. Children with translocation Down syndrome have the usual two copies of chromosome 21, but they also have additional material from chromosome 21 stuck to the translocated chromosome. This form of Down syndrome is uncommon.
> 
> There are no known behavioral or environmental factors that cause Down syndrome.
> 
> *Is it inherited?
> Most cases of Down syndrome aren't inherited. They're caused by a mistake in cell division during the development of the egg, sperm or embryo.*Translocation Down syndrome is the only form of the disorder that can be passed from parent to child. However, only about 4 percent of children with Down syndrome have translocation. And only about half of these cases are inherited from one of the parents.
> 
> In these translocation cases, the mother or father is a balanced carrier of the translocation, which means he or she has some rearranged genetic material, but no extra genetic material. A balanced carrier has no signs or symptoms of Down syndrome, but he or she can pass the translocation on to children.
> 
> The chance of passing on the translocation depends on the sex of the parent who carries the rearranged chromosome 21:
> 
> If the father is the carrier, the risk is about 3 percent.
> If the mother is the carrier, the risk is about 12 percent.
> 
> Risk factors
> Some parents have a greater risk of having a baby with Down syndrome. Risk factors include:
> 
> *Advancing maternal age.* A woman's chances of giving birth to a child with Down syndrome increase with age because older eggs have a greater risk of improper chromosome division. By age 35, a woman's risk of conceiving a child with Down syndrome is 1 in 400. By age 45, the risk is 1 in 35. However, most children with Down syndrome are actually born to women under age 35 because younger women have far more babies.
> Having had one child with Down syndrome. Typically, a woman who has one child with Down syndrome has about a 1 percent chance of having another child with Down syndrome.
> Being carriers of the genetic translocation for Down syndrome. Both men and women can pass the genetic translocation for Down syndrome on to their children.


----------



## Julie

krandall said:


> 1. While I haven't been involved in Havs for long, I HAVE done a lot of reading. I've also met a lot of Havs, both at Hav play dates and at our training center. There are lots of poorly bred ones there (as well as well bred ones!) because, unfortunately, we have a puppy mill outlet right down the street from us. Probably more pet dogs in this area come from "Pick A Pup" than come from breeders. I haven't seen lots of these dogs, but I HAVE seen a couple.
> 
> 2. By definition, a genetic abnormality doesn't come from the environment. We KNOW the gene that causes CD. That DOESN'T mean (as I said before) that it's not possible for a dog to develop short or bowed legs from an environmental cause... (For instance, I don't know what happens to a dog with Rickets, but we know it causes bowed legs in people) But this would not be CD. I've also seen all sorts of leg abnormalities in various animals caused by damage to unclosed growth plates. It stands to reason that this could cause abnormal leg growth in Havs as well. But this would NOT be CD either. It would be bowed legs for another reason. Tom has also explained that the egg yolk/cholesterol thing has been unsubstantiated.
> 
> 3. While, of course I haven't seen all the dogs Tom and Pam have produced, I HAVE seen, and can tell you with certainty, that none of the dogs in their current breeding stock nor any in Kodi's litter shows signs of CD. If you don't believe that, you can do what I did and go check them out for yourself... I'm sure you would be welcome! I believe soaps of both of Kodi's parents are on the King's website, (if not, I know they have them, as I have hard copy of both) and while I was there, we soaped and examined all the puppies together.
> 
> You didn't make me angry, Julie, and these are legitimate questions. But I don't think you need to be a breeder to be (or become) informed about issues that are important to your breed. Conversely, it is blatantly apparent that there are many "breeders" who churn out puppies without having a clue, or worse, even caring.
> 
> Because I AM VERY interested in performance, whether it be horses or dogs, sound conformation is a top priority for me. I have never bred horses either (though I did work on a breeding farm for a number of years) but I can still tell you with certainty what type of conformation is important for various performance activities, and what conformation flaws will relegate some horses to nothing more than back yard pets, suitable for no more than light pleasure riding. (or worse, in the world of horses, where the animals are awfully expensive pets... dog meat) Most good trainers and SERIOUS riders can do the same.
> 
> I happen to believe that we should ALL become informed on these subjects, if only for our own sake. In a world where we KNOW there are many people producing poor quality Havs, a "good reputation" as a breeder is a RGEAT place to start. But I don't want to depend on that. I want to have a clear idea of what is important to me in an animal I may spend a lot of money and a TREMENDOUS amount of time on. (to say nothing of the emotional issues that go along with a dog with heath problems)
> 
> There are certainly breeds that have worse track records in terms of health. As darling as they are, I wouldn't touch a Cavalier King Charles with a ten foot pole. And Boxers often die young of cancer these days. My brother has had two blind Collies from two different, well-respected breeders. But it pays to know the possible problems in the breed you are involved with, even if we are lucky that the problems are LESS common than they are in some other breeds.  That's the only way to keep them less common!
> 
> Breeders should do their job by learning as much as they can, keeping abreast of breaking studies in the field, testing and breeding conscientiously. Puppy buyers can ALSO do their part by knowing what the potential problems are and buying smart... avoiding those breeders who are NOT doing what they should be and NOT just falling for a cute face (aren't they all!) or buying based on convenient location.
> 
> In terms of CD in specific, if you (and I don't mean "you" specifically, Julie, I mean the buying public) don't believe it's a problem, then go ahead buy from breeders who slough it off as "no big deal" or put their heads in the sand. If, as I do, you believe it's something that breeders should be trying to remove from the gene pool, buy from a breeder who makes it a priority to breed for straight legs, and will prove it.
> 
> I think I hit on all of your questions.


Actually I agree with most everything you posted------CD....actual CD is not running rampid in the havanese breed when you buy from a reputable breeder. That was my point. I was not including back yard breeders and puppy mill puppies in that statement,because I would think or hope most people would do a little research and ask questions.Many do fall for a cute face,and that's okay too....but they are certainly taking a huge risk.

Also-not all dogs with a bent leg(S) has CD. In fact--I don't think Paige has ever stated that Preston has CD and all the symptoms that go with it. In fact....last I knew...he was running and playing with all the other boys and kids as much as his heart desires. No one said Paige bought Preston from a NON REPUTABLE breeder either. I do know for an absolute fact she did not purchase him from a pet store. Having Preston has been a blessing in her life....much like my Robbie is in mine. It actually IS possible Preston came from a very reputable breeder....and even if so....someone can state I've never had this....I've never had that....and maybe up to that point and that particular pup they had never had an issue like this pop up. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people every single day.

I never suggested Tom had bred a bent leg dog....I simply was making a point in this way....given Tom was your breeder and you had seen dogs with CD (prior to getting Kodi)...it isn't a big leap to think where? Tom? Surely Not?
Of course you saw them after getting Kodi-- wasn't something that entered my head given we are all supposed to be looking for good soaps PRIOR to purchase.Tom makes broad statements and I wouldn't think he'd advertise that way if he had something to hide. Bold statements call for backup. Yep--I'm absolutely positive he'd welcome me in....ound: Either way--I have a perfectly healthy,happy straight legged Havanese that came from a reputable breeder...just like YOU! eace:


----------



## Tom King

Julie, in your quote from the Mayo clinic notice that they say that the affected individual gets three copies of a gene instead of two. That's the similarity I was talking about. The affected CD individuals get a copy of the FGF4 gene put in the wrong place, much like the extra gene in Down Syndrome.


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## Julie

I understand that Tom....and get your point. My point is....it is NOT inherited from the mother and father in the common form of downs. See what I was getting at?


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## Tom King

Tha'ts not entirely correct in that both parents of the affected have to carry the extra FGF4 gene for short legs, and then to be affected the individual has to get it. http://www.science20.com/news_artic..._and_what_it_may_tell_us_about_human_dwarfism

I don't know if any particular gene has been identified for Down, but as your Mayo qoute states, a retrogene does play a function.

Google "retrogene" and there is much information. I copied and pasted this:

Retroposition is a process in which mRNAs are reverse-transcribed into DNAs and then insert back into a new position on the genome. Retroposed copies (retrocopies) lack many of their parental genes' genetic features, such as introns and regulatory elements.


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## Paige

I want to say that if anyone on this forum has a dog with bowed legs or they start limping they should take their havanese to a veterinarian I read the CD syndrome on the internet and thought my dog was going to die. Come to find out he has bowed legs, not a good thing for him, but not a death sentence either and not the CD syndrome. Last I knew there were no veterinarians on this forum, but many people on here like to give their opinion and make it sound like they know more than professionals do. Take your dog to a trusted vet and you and the vet can decide what is best for your beloved havanese. I really wish I would of never of started this thread, as it was meant for awareness only. It however has turned in to people with no medical education telling us uniformed and inaccurate information. I really have to wonder if breeders feel like they could come out in the open and say they had a pup with this condition, without fear of how the breeding community would judge them. I know I have felt judge by letting out the information I have. I would warn those who want to take the road of it will never happened to me, you never know what life will bring you and there are no guarentees. It doesn't always show up in the parents. I only hope that your pup lands in a home ready to totally love him/her regardless of their needs. 


Preston's Mom.


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## Julie

Tom King said:


> Tha'ts not entirely correct in that both parents of the affected have to carry the FGF4 gene for short legs, and then to be affected the individual has to get it back as a Retrogene. So, in fact, it is inherited even though the parents may not have it as a retrogene. If the parents do not have the FGF4 genes to pass on, the affected can't get it either in normal position, or as a retrogene. I don't know if any particular gene has been identified for Down, but as your Mayo qoute states, a retrogene does play a function.
> 
> Google "retrogene" and there is much information. I copied and pasted this:
> 
> Retroposition is a process in which mRNAs are reverse-transcribed into DNAs and then insert back into a new position on the genome. Retroposed copies (retrocopies) lack many of their parental genes' genetic features, such as introns and regulatory elements.


Oh Jesus! I give up.....You are the expert Tom...you breed perfection and have all the cures and knowledge more then anyone else in the dog world and human world too. You have the key to curing autism or linking it to some parents(God help us all) and know all the genetic makeups and chromosone studies that not only have been linked to autism but down syndrome too. I am so glad God has given you this knowledge because there are medical experts and doctors waiting at children's disbility clinics all over the world for your knowledge. Do something with it Tom-- to help children.....do more then breed a dog!


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## morriscsps

sigh... everyone is yelling...

I have a question which I hope won't start the yelling and genetic mayhem again. What are the complications of CD?

obviously, bowed legs is one sign. what are the other things which I, an owner of a bowed-legged dog, being checking for? I asked my vet about CD but she didn't think Jack had it.


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## Julie

I am just plain frustrated! :frusty:

To Tom:
The point I am making is I posted the COMMON FORM of Downs......not the rarest one. The common form is not passed down by the parent and it clearly states that from the Mayo website I copied and pasted here.

I think why we are not seeing eye to eye is because you are making a statement that pertains to a dog and making references to human chromosonal abnormalities. This is just not right and I take issue with that. Humans are way different then dogs. For example--you would not "line breed" humans or we all know what you'd get. My family does not have any genetic issues that gave my son his autism,nor that gave my cousin's child down syndrome. To pretend you know otherwise given the extensive testing we had at the Mayo Clinic with the top leading genetics specialists is just wrong and plain insulting and rude. I should not have posted my last post because I was frustrated and running out of time before I had to go to work--but I still think I am correct and you are wrong if you actually carefully read my post and the material from Mayo's.

The sad part is----this has nothing to do with dogs...not for me......and it should never have been about the human race.


----------



## krandall

Julie said:


> No one said Paige bought Preston from a NON REPUTABLE breeder either. I do know for an absolute fact she did not purchase him from a pet store.


To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that Paige had bought Preston from a disreputable breeder... I don't have a clue where she bought him. (though that are plenty of breeders who don't take bent front ends seriously enough) I was talking in general terms, not about Preston in specific.



Julie said:


> I never suggested Tom had bred a bent leg dog....I simply was making a point in this way....given Tom was your breeder and you had seen dogs with CD (prior to getting Kodi)...it isn't a big leap to think where? Tom? Surely Not?
> 
> Of course you saw them after getting Kodi-- wasn't something that entered my head given we are all supposed to be looking for good soaps PRIOR to purchase.


I hadn't seen dogs in real life with CD prior to getting Kodi. (well, at least not HAVS... I've seen a Bassett Hound here and there!:biggrin1 But I had read enough (partly due to this forum) to know what it was. Once you've seen it once, severe cases stick out like a sore thumb, especially if the dog is in a puppy cut.

As far as seeing soaps prior to purchase, I did see the Kodi's parent's soaps ahead of time. And as hard as it would have been, if we had soaped Kodi up and found that he WASN'T straight, I would have left without him. (I had promised my trainer-friend who went with me to check him out that I would walk away if he wasn't the right puppy, and I would have kept that promise)


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## krandall

Paige said:


> I want to say that if anyone on this forum has a dog with bowed legs or they start limping they should take their havanese to a veterinarian I read the CD syndrome on the internet and thought my dog was going to die. Come to find out he has bowed legs, not a good thing for him, but not a death sentence either and not the CD syndrome. Last I knew there were no veterinarians on this forum, but many people on here like to give their opinion and make it sound like they know more than professionals do. Take your dog to a trusted vet and you and the vet can decide what is best for your beloved havanese. I really wish I would of never of started this thread, as it was meant for awareness only. It however has turned in to people with no medical education telling us uniformed and inaccurate information. I really have to wonder if breeders feel like they could come out in the open and say they had a pup with this condition, without fear of how the breeding community would judge them. I know I have felt judge by letting out the information I have. I would warn those who want to take the road of it will never happened to me, you never know what life will bring you and there are no guarentees. It doesn't always show up in the parents. I only hope that your pup lands in a home ready to totally love him/her regardless of their needs.
> 
> Preston's Mom.


Hi Paige, I think if you are judged at all, it is to be admired that you shared everything that has happened with Preston INCLUDING that he is living a happy, healthy life in your care. Every dog deserves that!:hug:

I also undertand completely how scary it can be reading about something on the internet. I remember when Kodi was little and came down with Puppy Pyoderma. The vet didn't seem too concerned, but when I came home and looked it up on line I FREAKED!!! What they described on line was SO much worse than what happened. He had some little bumps on his legs and belly, got two shots of antibiotics two weeks apart and never looked back. I'm sure that SOME puppies have complications and die of it, but I bet it's a tiny minority. Fortunately, I have good friends who are vets that I can run things by, and they calmed me (and my fears!) down.

I do think that breeders should try to breed straight legged dogs, and the good ones do work at it. And yes, it can pop up in the "best of families". Good breeders will use that knowledge to guide and refine their breeding program. Those puppies with bowed legs still deserve a good loving home, and that's just what Preston has with you!


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## Julie

:cheer2: You are so right Karen! :cheer2:

You just never quite know and if breeders are doing all they can to learn and prevent and further the breed that's all we can ask. It is our job (in my opinion) to pick wisely and research....cover all your "bases". 

As it pertains to Preston however--he is different. He lacks all the other anamolies that are associated with CD and he did not have bowed legs as a puppy.They developed over time according to Paige. I know quite a bit about Preston because he has always been my favorite of Paige's boys. Of course,I am not speaking for her,but this was and is my understanding.She has given him a wonderful home,wonderful care and a house full of playmates. He is "living the life"....:kiss: The spoiled Love Muffin!:kiss:


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## JASHavanese

Suzi said:


> I suppose their are political things involved that I am not aware of . And if that is true I am sorry that is happening.:grouphug:


Julie's right. Grab a chair and go through the whole thing before you form an opinion. Basically it is a political move and one that took some very nasty turns which don't get talked about in the threads as that would break the bounds of the HCA rules at the time (I'm HCA all the way)


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## JASHavanese

krandall said:


> 1. As darling as they are, I wouldn't touch a Cavalier King Charles with a ten foot pole. )


I wouldn't either with the problems they have which surprises me that you'd want a silk. Oh, I guess they forgot to give you those statistics in your reading. I do commend you for trying your best to inform yourself but if your information is from one side, that's not truly being informed. I hope you're one of the lucky ones.


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## Suzi

morriscsps said:


> sigh... everyone is yelling...
> 
> I have a question which I hope won't start the yelling and genetic mayhem again. What are the complications of CD?
> 
> obviously, bowed legs is one sign. what are the other things which I, an owner of a bowed-legged dog, being checking for? I asked my vet about CD but she didn't think Jack had it.


 My vet said arthritis We are taking Maddie to a specialist this wed to find out more. I got CD mixed up with elbow problems. In the case of CD their are some dogs that develope worse problems like cataracts, Liver problems, and heart problems. I am not a vet but that is what I read.


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## Suzi

Paige said:


> I want to say that if anyone on this forum has a dog with bowed legs or they start limping they should take their havanese to a veterinarian I read the CD syndrome on the internet and thought my dog was going to die. Come to find out he has bowed legs, not a good thing for him, but not a death sentence either and not the CD syndrome. Last I knew there were no veterinarians on this forum, but many people on here like to give their opinion and make it sound like they know more than professionals do. Take your dog to a trusted vet and you and the vet can decide what is best for your beloved havanese. I really wish I would of never of started this thread, as it was meant for awareness only. It however has turned in to people with no medical education telling us uniformed and inaccurate information. I really have to wonder if breeders feel like they could come out in the open and say they had a pup with this condition, without fear of how the breeding community would judge them. I know I have felt judge by letting out the information I have. I would warn those who want to take the road of it will never happened to me, you never know what life will bring you and there are no guarantees. It doesn't always show up in the parents. I only hope that your pup lands in a home ready to totally love him/her regardless of their needs.
> 
> Preston's Mom.


 I know what you mean, I do not think anyone intentionally tried to make you worrie more than you already are. I have been interested in this topic because Maddie has a bone in one leg that is bowed. I started reading about the CD and kept thinking maybe she has it.
What really needs to happen is more studies and as far as I have learned from this topic The gene that causes it has been determined their just needs to be more research done to have a easy test for the responsible breeders to be able to use before breeding their dogs. 
I guess some folks do not believe the two study's that have been done. I just hope with more funding the studies will continue. I found it interesting that CD can also cause skin problems maybe their is a correlation to Sebaceous skin disorder and bowed legs?


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## krandall

JASHavanese said:


> I wouldn't either with the problems they have which surprises me that you'd want a silk. Oh, I guess they forgot to give you those statistics in your reading. I do commend you for trying your best to inform yourself but if your information is from one side, that's not truly being informed. I hope you're one of the lucky ones.


Actually, just because I don't always agree with you doesn't mean my information is one-sided. You don't know me very well.


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## Missy

Oh dear I think everyone here has good intentions and just are hoping to have happy healthy havs. For those that breed (and we know if you are here you are most likely very reputable) you are just following the course you think is best for your lines and the breed. 

From personal experience, Cash has very short, thick,bowed front legs, a huge chest (like a dachshund) and very straight much taller back legs. He looks almost exactly like the hav in the inside cover of Dorothy Goodales book. I worried and fretted and studied, and when he got very sick I was sure we were in for lots of problems related to CD. But Cash is 4 and is in terrific shape. He has an odd body but he is one happy hav. At one one point in the early days some reports had this look as being desirable. 

Even with best of intentions, breeding and genetics puppies are living creatures and s!:# happens. 

I agree with Paige that sometimes our enthusiasm to teach, defend, and promote can make members we care about feel bad.


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## franny

*CD*

I am feeling sick right at this moment. I had my litle guy somewhat shaved since he is impossible to groom and this has made it much easier. However, after looking at him I noticed his legs were really bowel legged and one foot was going in. It started bothering me and looked into it and now I find out it is CD. I am sick over it. From what I am reading it can affect other things and shorten their life span. I had this happened to me with a golden and I did not do well with a shortened life span. He seems fine and I have him running for exercise 3x a day to take some of his energy away and never noticed any pain or difficulty but looking at him there is no question he has it. Trying to reach breeder now to let her know it is in her line. Does anyone know anything about this and can I hurt him by running him and will it hurt him long term. I am in such a state at this moment. He has been one heck of a puppy but I love him to death. Any advice or any experience with this?


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## StarrLhasa

Hi, Frannie:

My Buster, now 17 month old but adopted from a shelter at 5 months, has very bowed front legs and a larger head. After reading about the syndrome, I was very worried about whether or not he has CD and what health problems - early cataracts, liver problems, and heart problems - he might have in the future.

He runs-like-hell with Buffy and roughhouses with her and doesn't seem to have any problems at this time. I don't have pet insurance and was trying to decide whether or not to get him covered so he would not have a pre-existing condition.

I don't know who bred Buster [This breeder dumped 37 dogs, including Buster, with a county animal shelter last July and has dumped several other batches of dogs there since.], but I was hoping to find out information from some of my fellow adopters as to their dogs' health.

One of the Forum members was kind enough to put me in touch with someone who knows about Buster's breeder as well as CD syndrome. She listened to me patiently and explained what she knew about Buster's origins and then talked to me about CD.

A diagnosis of CD is apparently not a death sentence. Bent legs do not necessarily mean that a dog will get early cataracts or have liver shunts or heart problem. That said, if I were you I would certainly take the dog to a Vet who is knowledgeable about the condition. It may require going to a Vet school if you don't have such a Vet nearby.

How about some photos of your pup?


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## franny

*CD*

I saw Paiges description of her dogs legs and realized my little pup has the same thing and really bad. I had him groomed last week and took of a lot of his fur since grooming was a nightmare. When I got him home and looked at him I couldn't believe how bowel legged he was and thought it was funny. I never had a small dog and at first didn't think anything of it. Then it started bothering me not him but me and went on the internet and read up and discovered what he has. I have not stopped crying. He is only 10 months and see this as being bad and hoping someone can tell me something good. I have an appt at the vet tomorrow and am scared of what the outcome is. Teddy has been chasing a ball 3x a day since spring came and I am hoping I haven't made it worse. I have tried reaching my breeder who told me he was totally checked out and guaranteed no health issues. I need to hear from others with these disease and hopefully some positive reassuring stories. I had a golden who died at 6 and I lost 20 lbs over it don't want to watch my puppy suffer. Please someone give me hope.


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## StarrLhasa

Hi, Franny:

Not every curved front turns out to be CD, and even if it turns out that your pup is diagnosed with CD, he could have the mildest form of it - curved legs only. 

He seems to be having a wonderful time running around. Just keep him from jumping until he is about a year old because a Hav's growth plates don't close until then.

I am a worrier, too, so I can imagine how you are feeling right now. Please try to remain calm until after you get Vet's diagnosis and prognosis.

Please keep us updated. We care.


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## lfung5

I am sorry. This is sad to read. Did you hear from the breeder? I wish I could offer you some information, but I don't know much about CD. I do know how you are feeling, because Bella had a liver shunt. At the time I felt overwhelmed with worry and fear. Also, Freddie has luxating patellas. When I first found out, I went crazy. I took him to a specialist, called his breeder and thought the worst. Turns out he may never need surgery. He is almost 6 and you would never know he has a problem. He can run and play with the best of them!
I hope this forum can help assure you he will be ok. It seems if he is bounding with energy and you haven't noticed it before, he may not be in pain.. Good luck and please keep us posted!


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## HavaneseHannah

I think rest and a little bit of gradual walking will help it return to its normal function. How is he doing now?


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## Pamela Rolla

The pictures didn't come in on my end - maybe I am just late seeing this thread.... hate to ask - but would love to view. Thanks


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## MarinaGirl

Hi Pamela - This is a very old thread (started in 2007) and some early members of Havanese Forum switched to another forum and removed all of their pictures on the HF site, which might be why they're no longer in this thread. As well, the original poster later regretted starting this thread as it went sideways so it's probably best not to resurrect it. I recommend that if you're interested in this topic that you start a new thread.

-Jeanne-


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## krandall

That said, the dog in question is still happy and healthy, crooked legs and all!


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## Lalla

So pleased the dog is still healthy!


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## Loveachuckle

I am taking my baby to the specialist tomorrow for a consult on his bowed legs and am TERRIFIED! 

I was reading this entire thread and wondering where the pictures were. LOL I am new to this forum and thought myself to be a dummy because I couldn't find them. 

I am glad to hear that Preston is still doing well...or, at the least, that's what was posted here lastly. 

Being in this position myself, I am really upset and concerned so, looking for hope. A HUGE thank you to Paige for being so helpful in caring enough to share with us all. 

Where might I find the newer threads?


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## morriscsps

I am not sure where those pics went. But I did a search on "soaped legs" and got a couple of threads. The first is good legs.

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=38522&highlight=soaped+legs

This is the thread I created when I found out about Jack. It has copies of his xrays.

http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=13402&highlight=bowed+legs

Hope this helps a little.


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## lfung5

I am sorry for what you are going through. I found this:

http://www.erashavanasilkdogs.com/CD2.html

I hope your pup will be ok. It is so hard to go through these things. Trust me, I have been through a lot with my 3. Good luck and please keep us posted


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## Paige

I am Preston's mom and will be updating on him soon. and will answer any questions anyone has.


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## davetgabby

hi Paige, good to hear from you again, it's been awhile , how are those pups doing?


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## Loveachuckle

Thank you, Paige, Morris and IFung! 
HUGS
XO


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## krandall

Paige said:


> I am Preston's mom and will be updating on him soon. and will answer any questions anyone has.


Hi Paige! Nice to hear from you! Hope Preston continues to do well!


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## Paige

Hello, I have been contacted recently about Preston and have seen over the years where others have wondered about Preston so I thought I would respond here. His pictures were removed as unfortunately some people were using them for there own agenda. His legs are very bad and are so bent they form a heart shape when together. 


First off let me say that Preston will turn 8 years old July 6th and is doing wonderful. He lives with 3 other male havanese and a female minpin/lab mix rescue. Crooked legs are not a death sentence or CD. 


Preston has never had to have any type of surgery done on his legs. His legs have not affected his life, he lives his life just like the other four dogs in my house, spoiled. The only time he seems under stress and whines is when I am in the house and he is outside, then he will stand at the glass sliding doors whining to get back in or vise-versa I am outside and he inside. 


I chose not to have surgery done on Preston after speaking with my vet and after all these years know I made the right choice. 


My vet explained to me the surgery that would be done on him and explained that his legs would never be 100 percent correct, even with the surgery. As long as he was able to walk and get around with no problem and not be in pain, it was better to leave things be. To do surgery they would cut out a piece of bone and insert a rod, over time the bone would grow over the rod. This would cause a lot more arthritis in later years than the arthritis that he will have from the genetic condition that it is. 


I had a Labrador, Axl (signature Photo) who tore her ACL in both of her legs, one at 6 months old and one at 

one year of age. I had both of her legs fixed. She passed away at 15 years of age from bladder cancer two years ago. If it hadn’t been for arthritis medicine and pain medicine and a wonderful vet that works with me, she would of had to been put to sleep two years before she passed from bladder cancer because I woke one morning to my baby girl who couldn’t stand up from arthritis and she had already been on arthritis medicine for over a year. But I had already talked to my vet about a next step when that medicine no longer worked. I knew that from her past surgeries that her arthritis would be worse. 


So unless your havanese or any dog is affected to the point of not being able to enjoy a normal life or in pain, I would not recommend surgery. I was lucky to have a vet who explained and answered all my questions and I even asked if it was his dog what would he do and he said he wouldn’t do it. He said he would do the surgery if I wanted him to, so he was losing at least $5000-7000 by telling me not to do the surgery. 


One thing Preston has been getting since he was 6 months old and will get for life is Triple Strength Joint Max, I get it from Entirely Pets. He only gets half a treat a day. He will have trouble walking when he gets older and may have to be carried and be on medicine like Axl was. But he runs and plays and swims just like the rest of my pack and he doesn’t know he is any different. I will add that I don’t take him on walks, but I do have a large backyard and he does play and runs with his playmates. but just like the rest of my pack, chooses to follow me around all day and lay and rest wherever I sit. 


I would be happy to answer any questions you might have. Hope this helps if you find that your babies legs aren’t as straight as they should be. Just know that its not the end of the world and God picked you to take care of this special baby.


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## Thumper

Paige…:grouphug: my dear, beautiful friend!! :kiss: Oh how I miss seeing those pictures of Mr. oh so darn adorable, Preston, it sucks that people feel the need to steal images that aren't theirs on the internet 

Give him some kisses and hugs from Gucci and I :kiss:


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## davetgabby

thanks for sharing that Paige, hope to see more of you on here.


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## Paige

Thank you so much Kara. Preston and the boys have always had a crush on your beauty Gucci. But don't tell Chloe, she would be jealous. She thinks she is their one and only lol


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## krandall

Thanks so much for the update, Paige. I am SO sorry that people were using poor Preston's photos for their own agenda!


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## sandypaws

Paige, thank you for posting this, as you and I have the very same situation with our Havanese. My Tyler's front legs are also heart shaped. In fact, they even have the same birthday of July 6th, however, Tyler will be 17 this year. Yes, 17, with bad CD and still very active when he's not sleeping which is most of the time now. He can still RLH, go for walks, dance for his food and he does 45 minutes/day on his "doggie" treadmill. The treadmill is not for the CD but because last year shortly after his 16th B-day, he jumped off his ramp and tore the ACL in his right hind leg. He did not have surgery but did go through 5 months of rehab and now has his own "gym" at home. We opted out of surgery for his ACL due to his age and he actually has had the same outcome as dogs who do undergo surgery we have been told by his vet. We were told that he would develop arthritis in that joint, but he has not. I have been giving him Cosequin DS for about 8 years or so and it certainly has done it's job.

Sorry, I went off topic with the ACL thing, but you also mentioned that with your other dog so I wanted to let you know what else Tyler has going on. As far as the CD goes, he does not now or has never had any issues with it at all. In fact, I never even noticed how bad it was until I saw him doing his water therapy last fall. I kept him in full coat for about 6 years and, although I was the one who bathed him, I never noticed his legs. After that he went to the groomer's and was kept in a puppy coat with scissored legs which, again, hid his condition. I know it sounds crazy that it took me 16+ years to notice his legs, but in the 90's it wasn't considered the condition that it is now. The only health issue mentioned then was cataracts that I was aware of. 

Well, after all the rambling, I guess I want to let you know that Tyler does not have issues with arthritis and does not need to be carried around in his advanced years due to his CD. He also has been a very, very healthy dog. I can honestly say that Tyler has never had to see the vet due to any illness in his entire 17 years. The only issue he had was a bout of diarrhea 3 years ago when he lost his brother, Bailey, and I know that was stress related, as he had never been without another dog in his life, leaving his littermates at 9 weeks and coming to our house where there were two other dogs, a Bichon and a Havanese. 

So, Paige, as you said, CD is not a death sentence and they can live a long, normal, happy life without pain or suffering. He has been a blessing and a joy to us as I know Preston has been to you. If you have any questions, you can always PM me. Thanks again for your story or Preston's I should say.


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## krandall

I think the big thing to remember about CD (and congenital crooked legs from other reasons) is that we don't want to BREED these dogs, nor should we continue lines that tend to produce them. 

HOWEVER, if your goal for your Havanese is as a loving household pet, which is what most of them do for a living, and do VERY nicely , as Paige and Pam and Mary have all said, CD and/or crooked legs is FAR from a death sentence, or even a crippling condition. For most pet dogs, it will never get in their way, in their entire lives.


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## Paige

sandypaws said:


> Paige, thank you for posting this, as you and I have the very same situation with our Havanese. My Tyler's front legs are also heart shaped. In fact, they even have the same birthday of July 6th, however, Tyler will be 17 this year. Yes, 17, with bad CD and still very active when he's not sleeping which is most of the time now. He can still RLH, go for walks, dance for his food and he does 45 minutes/day on his "doggie" treadmill. The treadmill is not for the CD but because last year shortly after his 16th B-day, he jumped off his ramp and tore the ACL in his right hind leg. He did not have surgery but did go through 5 months of rehab and now has his own "gym" at home. We opted out of surgery for his ACL due to his age and he actually has had the same outcome as dogs who do undergo surgery we have been told by his vet. We were told that he would develop arthritis in that joint, but he has not. I have been giving him Cosequin DS for about 8 years or so and it certainly has done it's job.
> 
> Sorry, I went off topic with the ACL thing, but you also mentioned that with your other dog so I wanted to let you know what else Tyler has going on. As far as the CD goes, he does not now or has never had any issues with it at all. In fact, I never even noticed how bad it was until I saw him doing his water therapy last fall. I kept him in full coat for about 6 years and, although I was the one who bathed him, I never noticed his legs. After that he went to the groomer's and was kept in a puppy coat with scissored legs which, again, hid his condition. I know it sounds crazy that it took me 16+ years to notice his legs, but in the 90's it wasn't considered the condition that it is now. The only health issue mentioned then was cataracts that I was aware of.
> 
> Well, after all the rambling, I guess I want to let you know that Tyler does not have issues with arthritis and does not need to be carried around in his advanced years due to his CD. He also has been a very, very healthy dog. I can honestly say that Tyler has never had to see the vet due to any illness in his entire 17 years. The only issue he had was a bout of diarrhea 3 years ago when he lost his brother, Bailey, and I know that was stress related, as he had never been without another dog in his life, leaving his littermates at 9 weeks and coming to our house where there were two other dogs, a Bichon and a Havanese.
> 
> So, Paige, as you said, CD is not a death sentence and they can live a long, normal, happy life without pain or suffering. He has been a blessing and a joy to us as I know Preston has been to you. If you have any questions, you can always PM me. Thanks again for your story or Preston's I should say.


This is wonderful to hear:whoo: I know Axl my lab was a lot worse In the end from her surgeries and that was a consideration when deciding what to do for Preston. I am so glad that your baby is doing so well.


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## Paige

I want to make a point that crooked legs are not always caused by CD Chondrodysplasia. Don't assume that this is what is wrong with your dog and they they will have all the problems that go with it. Speak with a vet you trust, educate yourself online and ask a lot of questions. Surgery is not always the answer.

It is always important to let your breeder know about your dogs condition and hopefully they will do the right thing.


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## FancyNancy

My Henry's legs are bowed as well and my holistic vet has him on Dasuquin. She says it more easily absorbed than Glucosamine for dogs. Whether it's helping or not, who knows! It's not hurting so I'm doing it. Wishing all the doggies with bowed legs the best from me and Henry (and the straight legged ones too)!!!


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## krandall

Paige said:


> This is wonderful to hear:whoo: I know Axl my lab was a lot worse In the end from her surgeries and that was a consideration when deciding what to do for Preston. I am so glad that your baby is doing so well.


The other thing to keep in mind, though, is that a Lab has a lot more weight on those legs than a little Havanese does. I suspect that also contributes to arthritis and pain as they get older. (not to say you did the wrong thing with Preston, but only that Axl's size probably contributed to his problems!)


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## Paige

krandall said:


> The other thing to keep in mind, though, is that a Lab has a lot more weight on those legs than a little Havanese does. I suspect that also contributes to arthritis and pain as they get older. (not to say you did the wrong thing with Preston, but only that Axl's size probably contributed to his problems!)[/
> 
> I would suspect any injury/surgery or condition like Preston or Axl's would cause pain in their last years of life. Axl being a large Lab I am sure played a part in it. However, I have a pond in my backyard where she was able to swim often for 15 years, which was great therapy for her. My vet said Preston will have arthritis in his front legs late in his life and it would be worse if he had the surgery. Axl required constant care for the last 2 years of her life 1 from her arthritis, which was made worse from the ACL injuries and surgeries.


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## sandypaws

Paige said:


> krandall said:
> 
> 
> 
> The other thing to keep in mind, though, is that a Lab has a lot more weight on those legs than a little Havanese does. I suspect that also contributes to arthritis and pain as they get older. (not to say you did the wrong thing with Preston, but only that Axl's size probably contributed to his problems!)[/
> 
> I would suspect any injury/surgery or condition like Preston or Axl's would cause pain in their last years of life. Axl being a large Lab I am sure played a part in it. However, I have a pond in my backyard where she was able to swim often for 15 years, which was great therapy for her. My vet said Preston will have arthritis in his front legs late in his life and it would be worse if he had the surgery. Axl required constant care for the last 2 years of her life 1 from her arthritis, which was made worse from the ACL injuries and surgeries.
> 
> 
> 
> Paige, maybe Preston will luck out like Tyler and not be plagued with arthritis in his front legs. Tyler has not shown any indication of that at all. He doesn't have any sign of stiffness, limping or pain. Hopefully Preston will have the same result.
Click to expand...


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## Paige

sandypaws said:


> Paige said:
> 
> 
> 
> Paige, maybe Preston will luck out like Tyler and not be plagued with arthritis in his front legs. Tyler has not shown any indication of that at all. He doesn't have any sign of stiffness, limping or pain. Hopefully Preston will have the same result.
> 
> 
> 
> I sure hope so, that would definitely be a blessing. It was so sad to see Axl go through so much and have so much trouble getting around. I would have to help her up and down at the very end and she was a heavy girl. She weighed 90 lbs and 77 at her passing. Preston has never shown any signs of pain so far.
Click to expand...


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## morriscsps

That is pretty much what the ortho doc told me when he looked at my Jack. Since he was a companion, the pain and aftereffects of surgery wouldn't be worth it. The crooked legs weren't causing difficulties in his everyday life.

I just have to keep Jack lean/skinny and on cosequin/dasuquin. I am glad to heard that Preston is doing well. It gives me confidence that we made a good choice.


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## Paige

morriscsps said:


> That is pretty much what the ortho doc told me when he looked at my Jack. Since he was a companion, the pain and aftereffects of surgery wouldn't be worth it. The crooked legs weren't causing difficulties in his everyday life.
> 
> I just have to keep Jack lean/skinny and on cosequin/dasuquin. I am glad to heard that Preston is doing well. It gives me confidence that we made a good choice.


It's wonderful to see, that the doctors are not pushing the surgery and our fur babies are living long healthy spoiled lives. Just like a havanese is suppose too. :whoo: I am so glad to hear Jack is doing so well.:whoo:

Preston's condition made his body grow longer which has kept him lean and he is a picky eater so keeping him lean has never been a issue. However some of my other havs, love to eat and I have to watch their waistline


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## krandall

Paige said:


> Preston's condition made his body grow longer which has kept him lean and he is a picky eater so keeping him lean has never been a issue. However some of my other havs, love to eat and I have to watch their waistline


Ha! I have told a number of people that Kodi is a "Labrador in a Havanese suit"&#8230; based on his appetite, anyway. He is lean, but because _I_ keep him that way. He would eat himself into oblivion left to his own devices!


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## morriscsps

krandall said:


> Ha! I have told a number of people that Kodi is a "Labrador in a Havanese suit"&#8230; based on his appetite, anyway. He is lean, but because _I_ keep him that way. He would eat himself into oblivion left to his own devices!


That would be Jack. He inhales his food and looks for more.


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## Loveachuckle

First of all, let me thank ALL of you for posting to this thread (the latter posts especially). I'm SO glad that this thread was revived (hopefully, on a better note now). 

I think it's SO important for others to know what to expect with situations like this one as that is how I found this forum (a search for bowed legs and CD). 

Paige...I am SO very sorry for what you went through with knuckle-headed thinkers. But, I am so very grateful for you sharing your experiences and story about Preston. There are more of us out here who are dealing with this and scared/worried and being talked into stuff (out of guilt) that we really don't know what to do with. 

Cassidy has been seen by an ortho-surgeon. The xrays our vet took told him that it is a form of CD BUT...he doesn't want to do any surgery at THIS point in time. We are to take him back mid-July to have one more xray done of his elbow (that needs to be done apparently but, I'm going to speak to our regular vet to get his opinion). Cassidy is 11 months old now and the ortho-surgeon wants to make sure that any further growth, doesn't displace his elbow on the right side (both legs are bowed on the front). 

I had kind of decided that I didn't want the "bone cutting surgery" done. I know people who have broken limbs years ago and now have arthritis many years later anyways in the area. So, the idea of breaking bone and the surgery to prevent arthritis, didn't sit well with me, let alone the idea that seeing him in pain for the length of time it would take to heal, isn't fair to a pup heading into his one year old birthday. 

The ortho-surgeon felt he didn't need to do anything but, wants to be sure and *IF* he did need to do surgery, it would be a minor one (by comparison to bone cutting and bolts/rods etc.). He said all he would attempt to do is a small incision at the elbow level and a "slit in the bone to allow for expansion so as not to displace the elbow". Not sure I even want THAT done! 

In the meanwhile, he RLH and plays and seems fine (knock on wood) and the ortho saw that and said he's a happy little guy...just let him be a dog and NO restrictions and no supplements needed right now...though I'm questioning that and learning more as I go. As a matter of fact, he WANTS us to exercise him. So, we are.  

You guys are offering the most peace of mind I've had in nearly 2 months of having seen this! And, I thank you all!

Krandall, you are right that these dogs should NOT be bred. I have contacted the breeder and told her (in a nice but, factual way) what the ortho-surgeon has said. It IS genetic and that she should know and hopefully, decide that she needs a good look at her blood line with those 2 parent dogs. She's written back that she will NOT be breeding either of the dogs again. I can't count on that for sure, but I know I have done diligence in letting her know. She seems reputable enough that perhaps, it wasn't known to her what Cassidy's grandparents were like. Both of Cassidy's parents have straight legs, but this is recessive gene so, SOME of Cassidy's litter mates or other litters from those dogs, might have also received the gene and perhaps, the other owners haven't noticed it???? Had we not had Cassidy clipped down, we wouldn't have seen it either (as someone else has mentioned in here as well). 

This topic IS important and I wish to thank Paige for being so courageous and helpful as well as Morriscsps and Krandall and others. Please, let's keep talking about issues like this because it helps others...like me...newbies to the breed and this forum, who are terrified and looking for solace and peace of mind in these issues. 

To those who wish to bash or mis-use this type of thread/info...you need to give your head a shake! Grrrr.....


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## Loveachuckle

Going in for eye surgery for cataracts on Thursday so, it may be a few days after Thursday before I will be able to be back on the computer. But, in the meantime, I'm still here and reading.


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## Paige

Loveachuckle
I am so glad that you PM'ed and reached out to me. My intention when I first posted about Preston was to inform others so they would know about the condition and not have to freak out like I did and know that their beloved dog wasn't going to die, or possilby need the surgery and could live a happy and healty spoiled life that we wish for all of our fur babies. 

I would check into giving him a supplement, they are not prescriptions and are for the cartlidge, tissues and joints and can only help their legs not harm them. I would advise you to do some research on the ones that were listed here and choose which one you think best suits your havs situation. 

If I can be of any assistance at all, please feel free to email me at anytime. 

Hope your eye surgery goes well.


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## sandypaws

Loveachuckle said:


> Going in for eye surgery for cataracts on Thursday so, it may be a few days after Thursday before I will be able to be back on the computer. But, in the meantime, I'm still here and reading.


Best of luck with your cataract surgery and the follow up with your little one. So glad that this thread has helped you. Tyler is probably the best model regarding a dog living a happy, healthy, normal, long life with very bowed front legs who has never been in pain or had any stiffness in those legs. There is hope.


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## Tom King

After the "TAMU" study in 2006, and the Ostrander research in 2007 (independently) isolated the genes responsible, there was a more in depth study a couple of years later in 2009 to further isolate the genes that combine to be responsible. It's not as simple as recessive/dominant (unless, of course, a breed standard calls for it, and selects for it, making it become dominant), but of course is genetic.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2748762/

There are still some "rude screamer" breeders that swear this is all nonsense.


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## Paige

Tom King said:


> After the "TAMU" study in 2006, and the Ostrander research in 2007 (independently) isolated the genes responsible, there was a more in depth study a couple of years later in 2009 to further isolate the genes that combine to be responsible. It's not as simple as recessive/dominant (unless, of course, a breed standard calls for it, and selects for it, making it become dominant), but of course is genetic.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2748762/
> 
> There are still some "rude screamer" breeders that swear this is all nonsense.


As a pet owner I prefer to find a vet that I trust and that has gone to medical school to find the answers that I need to make the best decision for the proper care my dog will need. I don't appreciate you putting articles on here and then bashing other breeders calling some "rude screamer" breeders. I consider that rude. If you want to bash fellow breeders, start your own post. I started this post to educate owners to take their dogs to a trusted doctor not to a trusted breeder, but a veterinarian who has gone to school to learn how to treat medical issues that arise in animal science. To ease their minds that their dogs would be okay, not about the science of how it happened, what's done is done, we want to know how to care for our dogs.


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## Tom King

I certainly didn't intend for it to be rude, to you, or anyone else. I thought some people might like to understand the science behind it. As long as there are breeders who want to sweep it under the rug, it will keep happening. There have been several "rude screaming" instances over it over the years, and even recently. There are some who still loudly proclaim that it doesn't exist.

This has been an important thread for the benefit of Havanese. I applaud you for it. It's so long, that I doubt many new people will even read the whole thread. I expect there will be one or two new ones who will find the link to the science behind it interesting. If the science is withheld from new breeders, how can it be of benefit to the future of Havanese? There are more than a few that want it withheld.


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## Paige

Tom King said:


> I certainly didn't intend for it to be rude, to you, or anyone else. I thought some people might like to understand the science behind it. As long as there are breeders who want to sweep it under the rug, it will keep happening. There have been several "rude screaming" instances over it over the years, and even recently. There are some who still loudly proclaim that it doesn't exist.
> 
> This has been an important thread for the benefit of Havanese. I applaud you for it. It's so long, that I doubt many new people will even read the whole thread. I expect there will be one or two new ones who will find the link to the science behind it interesting.


Some may find the science interesting. However, I find your need to interject your opinion of how the havanese breeder community handles this situation opens up a forum for breeder bashing on this post, that I do not want. If you want to discuss that topic please start your own post for that. Thank you


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## Loveachuckle

Tom King said:


> After the "TAMU" study in 2006, and the Ostrander research in 2007 (independently) isolated the genes responsible, there was a more in depth study a couple of years later in 2009 to further isolate the genes that combine to be responsible. It's not as simple as recessive/dominant (unless, of course, a breed standard calls for it, and selects for it, making it become dominant), but of course is genetic.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2748762/
> 
> There are still some "rude screamer" breeders that swear this is all nonsense.


Hi Tom:

It's nice to meet you as a Newbie to this forum. 

First of all, thank you for providing the link to the information on the genes. Unfortunately, having only had early college level biology and chemistry, (way too many years ago, I'm afraid to say LOL) I can't fully comprehend the entire article but, grasped some major points in it. So, thank you for providing it. 

But, here is a question that I have (NOT an argument/challenge by ANY means of the word...but, a genuine question only)

I read this piece...about inbreeding and CD (aka Dwarfism) and it struck me that I don't really know what goes on with any breeder for that matter. But, have a friend and a sister-in-law's sister who are breeders (other breeds, large dogs) and they know breeder who "inbreed" to keep their lines "clean". I was directed to this article.

http://www.dailypuppy.com/articles/the-effects-of-inbreeding-in-dogs_1111.html

This stood out to me and had me puzzled....

*"A common effect of inbreeding is abnormalities or mutations. Genes that can trigger deformities are more common when animals are inbred because recessive gene disorders often show up in the puppies when dominant genes aren't present to cancel them out. Those genes can move on to each generation and become more widespread. The abnormalities could be anything from extra toes to dwarfism to a predisposition to certain conditions, such as hip dysplasia."*Now, I have NO idea what Cassidy's breeder does or doesn't do as I trusted her but, the piece quoted above, does seem to indicate that it is a "recessive gene disorder". The Orthopedic Surgeon did call it a "recessive gene" so, I'm wondering who is right here now.

I agree with Paige's comment though that I don't want to turn this thread into a breeder's issue as all that I want right now, is to know that my puppy is going to be ok with this issue.  I'm simply responding to what I'm seeing in articles (including the one you've so kindly linked for us) and what I've been told by a veterinarian specialist.


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## Loveachuckle

Thank you Paige and Sandypaws! 

Yes...this thread is helping me tremendously and I did read through pretty much all (then) 30+ pages of this thread before I started to post to it. LOL I am SO interested! Unfortunately, it did take a bit of a twist and turn that made me skip some posts (not directly related to the topic at hand) but, this is a VERY important thread and topic to have posted on and I applaud Paige for having started it! I'm sure there are many more of us out here who are just as worried and upset and fearful. Knowing others who are in the same boat and how they are dealing with it helps tremendously!

Even the fact that all of us have different vets and different pieces of advice given to us, as well as what we all do with these pieces of info, all help us to know what to do or not do with our own furbabies. 

And, thank you for the well-wishes on my eye surgery. It's ironic how we can go through fear because we don't know what to expect BUT...go through fear when it has to be done again because we DO know what to expect! *SIGH* I guess that's why they say that doctors and nurses make the worst patients, huh?  

I'll be around until Thursday of this week, then may need a couple of days before I see straight again to be on the computer. This is my 2nd eye and the 1st one is still a little "nuts". I'm hoping to not have to have that re-done! Yikes!


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## Lalla

This whole subject and Paige's posts have been so moving and illuminating; I am incredibly lucky not to have to deal with this particular problem, but do have a lot of experience of other nightmares. I am so touched by the sharing of all that people go through, and so entirely agree with Karen that it's the not breeding of these dogs that is the important thing, second only to the loving of those members of our family who have problems, and of ensuring that they are happy and not in pain. Mary, I hadn't realised that Tyler had CD - well, there's an example of a long, long life managing a scary situation; others take heart from Tyler's story. And hooray for Preston.


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## krandall

Loveachuckle said:


> Krandall, you are right that these dogs should NOT be bred. I have contacted the breeder and told her (in a nice but, factual way) what the ortho-surgeon has said. It IS genetic and that she should know and hopefully, decide that she needs a good look at her blood line with those 2 parent dogs. She's written back that she will NOT be breeding either of the dogs again. I can't count on that for sure, but I know I have done diligence in letting her know. She seems reputable enough that perhaps, it wasn't known to her what Cassidy's grandparents were like. Both of Cassidy's parents have straight legs, but this is recessive gene so, SOME of Cassidy's litter mates or other litters from those dogs, might have also received the gene and perhaps, the other owners haven't noticed it???? Had we not had Cassidy clipped down, we wouldn't have seen it either (as someone else has mentioned in here as well).


It is absolutely possible for a recessive gene to remain "hidden" and pop up suddenly. So it is definitely possible for a reputable breeder, especially one who has not been breeding for a number of generations, to produce a puppy with CD. It's in the breed. We know that. It sounds like your breeder is doing exactly the right thing in removing those dogs from her breeding program. That's really all we can ask.

It sounds like you've done a great job looking into the best options for your little guy, and with you as his advocate, I'm sure he will have a long, happy life! Oh, an BTW, elbow displaysia, which it sounds may be going on with your pup, is a heritable condition, but is NOT CD. (though I suppose a dog could have both)


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## krandall

Loveachuckle said:


> Going in for eye surgery for cataracts on Thursday so, it may be a few days after Thursday before I will be able to be back on the computer. But, in the meantime, I'm still here and reading.


Good luck! I had mine done in Feb. I had a bad reaction to the anesthesia on the first eye, but the surgery itself was a piece of cake. By the second day, I could see better than I had been able to before the surgery. The only trouble was that my old prescription then didn't work AT ALL! The eye glass place popped the prescription lens out of one side of my glasses, and replaced that one with plain glass, and that worked great between the two surgeries. the second eye was more annoying that way, because then the prescription glasses were useless, but I couldn't see QUITE well enough up close. Cheap readers from the pharmacy got me through until I was ready for a new prescription.

You'll be back here before you know it! 

ETA: Oops! Just read this is your second eye, so you already know the drill. Good luck!


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## Lalla

Good luck with the eye surgery; when my father had it done he didn't even realise he'd had the procedure and asked me crossly why they didn't get on with it!! He was amazed that it had actually happened!


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## Lalla

Tom King said:


> I certainly didn't intend for it to be rude, to you, or anyone else. I thought some people might like to understand the science behind it. As long as there are breeders who want to sweep it under the rug, it will keep happening. There have been several "rude screaming" instances over it over the years, and even recently. There are some who still loudly proclaim that it doesn't exist.
> 
> This has been an important thread for the benefit of Havanese. I applaud you for it. It's so long, that I doubt many new people will even read the whole thread. I expect there will be one or two new ones who will find the link to the science behind it interesting. If the science is withheld from new breeders, how can it be of benefit to the future of Havanese? There are more than a few that want it withheld.


I for one find the science fascinating and entirely relevant; I'm saddened by the hostility to Tom King's interesting posts and don't, personally, remotely find it rude to anyone here to inform us that there is rudeness elsewhere.


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## JCurling

I second that emotion, Lalla!


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## Paige

Lalla said:


> I for one find the science fascinating and entirely relevant; I'm saddened by the hostility to Tom King's interesting posts and don't, personally, remotely find it rude to anyone here to inform us that there is rudeness elsewhere.


I am glad your you found the science interesting. However, you joined the forum in 2013 and you are unaware of the hostility that occured on this forum years back on this subject and others among breeders and I don't want it started up again on this post. Tom King was involved in it, along with many other breeders. That is why I addressed the subject the way I did. His or any other breeders opinions of each other has no place on this thread.

I don't see where one breeder's opinion of other breeders has any benefit whatsoever in the improvement of any dogs' legs, or any dogs' legs in the furture. All it can do is cause a riff in the breeder community, and that can only hurt the havanese, the dogs who the breeders are supposingly trying to protect.


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## Loveachuckle

Thank you, Paige, Lalla and Krandall.  

I totally agree that we don't want fighting in here as Paige was kind enough to share her story to help those of us who are frightened and not knowing what to do or believe and researching our rears off to find out what to do. I'm ever so grateful for Paige's posts and courage. 

Likewise, I do love information about these things...all the info I can get!  (I have an analytical mind who has to know the mechanics of things) So, I was thankful for the info in the linked study that Tom King had provided as well. I just don't want to see any fights going on between people because we can all help one another. 

Most of us in here are owners and pet parents so, our real concerns are just keeping our babies healthy and happy!  

Honestly, I am NOT blaming Cassidy's breeder at all.  I do recognize that it's possible (as Krandall has so nicely and politely pointed out  ) that she just didn't know. Thus, my polite, simply factual note to her about Cassidy's condition. I think she will do the "right thing" as she sees fit. But, that isn't my aim or concern really. It's only about what Paige has originally posted and others who are dealing with the same issues are helping us all through. I had NO intentions of ever showing Cassidy. He is purely to be a member of our family so, as long as he's ok....that's all that matters to me. I hope to keep him healthy and enjoying life for as long as Nature will allow.  

It's topics like this one that help so very much. I'm sure others will come looking for this issue as well as the ortho surgeon said that he is seeing more and more of this in Havanese, coming through his door. So, that said, I agree with you, Krandall that I need to re-question the ortho in mid-July about the CD thing! He did say it was...but, I'm not convinced totally yet. I did my own measurements and if it is, it's slight. 

As for my eyes...yes...2nd one and the first one didn't go as well. I keep feeling that I'm seeing the edge of the lens. It's been 9 weeks this coming Friday since the 1st one was done and I still have "wobbly" vision from that eye and have told the surgeon about it twice. There's a crescent shape that I see from the outside corner in different lights and it "appears" as though it's the edge of the lens though it may not be. She simply says that it's because I need both eyes done??? I will wait and have this done tomorrow and in my 1 week post-op check, ask her to re-look at BOTH eyes. I just pray (and knock on wood) that I won't need it re-done!!! I'm a HUGE suck when it comes to medical procedures and have a hospital phobia so, it's not easy for me to be even in there! LOL 

Send me good thoughts tomorrow and thank you all for sharing and caring about Cassidy and me!  So happy to have found you all.


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## Tom King

Both of my Parents had both eyes done for cataracts a couple of decades ago. My Mother is now 98, and her eyes are still working just fine. She plays piano or organ in church when the regular musicians don't show up. I expect they have gotten a lot better at that procedure now than they were 20 years ago. So, I'm wishing you good luck in it, but think the odds are stacked now pretty heavily in your favor, even though you had some trouble with the first one. 

I also had a good friend of mine, a Nobel Prize winning AstroPhysicist, who had one eye done around 15 years ago. As a person very involved with high precision optics, he had a bit of trouble adjusting to some things about the difference in focus with that eye, but I haven't noticed him even giving it any favor, or looking at things unusually, like he did for some while after the replacement, in probably over a decade now. He had one blue eye, and one green eye. It turned out the green eye had parasites in it that was the cause for needing a lens replacement at a fairly young age.



Now that the genes that cause CD have been identified, it can completely be erased from the breed in a couple of generations if a commercial test is made available. The researchers who did the testing to identify the genes are not involved in commercial testing. They have all moved on to other things.

If breed proponents really wanted to rid it from the breed, there are companies who would be glad to run the test, but it requires a fairly sizable amount of money to be raised for them to develop the test even though the exact genes they would be looking for are well known. That amount has gotten smaller in the last 6 or 7 years. It's been done several times over the past 7 or 8 years for various things in different breeds, including Havanese.

As long as there are breeders, or people interested in the breed, that want to keep it swept under the rug, or argue that the science is useless, we'll keep seeing it. Now that there is more science available (even though it's five years old now) to back up the facts, hopefully this number will get smaller.

In the Havanese used in the Ostrander study, there were a few individuals without the FGF4 retrogene, so it's not like every Havanese is carrying it. They went to a dog show and took DNA samples. Dog owners willingly gave it, but they didn't know what it was for. The only reason Havanese were on their list of breeds they were checking, was because they somehow had a copy of the Breed Standard version (99 I think, but this has been 7 years ago) that called for "short legged". Otherwise, they might have skipped right over them.

As the latest study showed, it's not a simple recessive, but can be eliminated by choosing breeding individuals who are not carriers on one side, and then only breeding offspring they produce who are themselves not carriers. Show record has absolutely nothing to do with this selection of individuals, but so many still cling to it as the end all.


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