# Teds front legs



## lise

I just got a puppy cut for Ted yesterday as he is blowing coat and the mats were horrendous. I groomed him everyday and used every kind of detangler and cornstarch but it was futile. When I picked him up, he looked really cute but to my horror when I got him home I noticed that, to me, his front legs look bowed and 1 looks worse than the other. I have an appointment next week to get him fixed so I will bring it up to the Vet then. Ted doesnt do stairs (we are in a bungalow but stairs to outside) he never attempts to jump off of anything and now I am wondering if its uncomfortable for him and thats why. I havent got a hold of the breeder yet as I figure I better wait til we see the Vet.


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## Buzzys Mom

Oscar's front legs do that too- I also noticed it after we got him cut for the first time. He loves to jump and does stairs no problem. I think they are the same age too (or just about). We didn't teach him the stairs though- Buzzy, our older Hav did


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## Missy

good you're getting it checked out. I believe ted has what is called easty westy legs. and usually it is not big deal. Cash has this and one leg is more severe than the other and perhaps a bit deformed... but he still gets around perfectly. How old is Ted? it's probably good that he is not jumper not because of his front legs but because you are not supposed to let them jump down until their growth plates have stopped growing--- well after a year. Jasper would never jump on anything... until all of a sudden he did!


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## lise

Ted is 10 months.


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## Suzi

I have no idea but your vet should have noticed any real problem. So its probably not bad or he would have noticed. 
I turned one of your picture around hoto:


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## lise

He may not have as CD is not that obvious when they are really young. It is the premature or uneven closure of the growth plate. As Ted hasnt been seen since his last set of shots, the obviousness of it probably set in after. I really didnt notice until I had him cut short although looking back, with what I know now, there were signs.


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## lise

Missy said:


> good you're getting it checked out. I believe ted has what is called easty westy legs. and usually it is not big deal. Cash has this and one leg is more severe than the other and perhaps a bit deformed... but he still gets around perfectly. How old is Ted? it's probably good that he is not jumper not because of his front legs but because you are not supposed to let them jump down until their growth plates have stopped growing--- well after a year. Jasper would never jump on anything... until all of a sudden he did!


Easty Westy is just a saying. CD or chondodyplasia (spelling may be wrong) is why the feet are like that


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## HalleBerry

From what I'm reading about CD, you can measure and see if it's a potential diagnosis, since CD dogs are short from the elbow to the ground as compared to the elbow to top of shoulder blade measurement. East/west is frequently more about the front feet both pointing outwards rather than forward.


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## lise

I measured and he is not even. It should be an even measurement. If you notice not only are his feet facing out but his legs are not straight, one being worse than the other


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## HalleBerry

I thought I saw that in the pictures, but I was being hopeful that it was merely an illusion. Rats. I'm sorry...


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## lise

me too. Some big decisions over the next couple weeks after he is seen. I do have a 3 year health guarantee so depending on the severity......sigh


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## Missy

yes. but there are other things besides legs that go into a CD dx. I would not panic til you see a vet. And, there are different levels of CD, many dogs live totally normal lives. I hope a breeder like tom or heather weigh in. I know when I was worried about Cash, Tom posted something that totally put me to ease. if you are not showing Ted, and the vet gives him a good prognosis, besides slightly uneven legs, i would think twice about using the 3 year guarantee. there are no certainties in life, especially with living things. Good luck, please let us know what the vet says.


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## HalleBerry

And, FWIW, Halle doesn't jump off of anything either  I look at it as a plus - I can put her on a table or the bed, and she stays there!


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## lise

Believe me I know there are different things. Of course if Ted does not have a severe case I wouldn't use the guarantee. I have had dogs throughout my married life who I saw through seizures and cancer and severe allergies. Ted is just 10 months old and I had gotten him to spend my retirement (in a couple years) with and to use as a therapy dog. Looks don't matter to me, but health does. If I know that he will be unwell, I need to make decisions now instead of later. Nothing is set in stone, I'm just being realistic. My heart is busted and I don't even have a diagnosis yet


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## HalleBerry

I hate waiting. I am not a patient person....


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## Missy

right there with you. I meant no disrespect. it is hard to know how much research someone has done when reading online... I just wanted offer some comfort.


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## lise

It's ok, I did so much research before but I just wish I had seen the article that was sent to me by a forum member last night. I so would have had the breeder soap up Ted and show me pictures of what he looked like in the front and at the side at 6 weeks. Some little things that I really didn't think was anything probably were. When I used to pick Ted up out of his pen I would hear a soft cracking sound but he never winced, or limped or complained so I thought it was nothing. When it was really cold out one very snowy day and Ted started running around on 3 feet, I thought he probably had snow caught between his toes. I brought him in and washed him off with warm water and the 4 legs came back down again. When I used to see his little feet sort of look like they were pointing outward I thought it was just how his long fur was pointing. I would read how the other Havs were jumping off of couches and beds and wonder why Ted wouldn't even try the 2 stairs to go outside.


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## littlebuddy

Poor sweet Django's front legs both bow out. He looks like he just got off a horse! We always laugh when he stands at the top of the stairs and his bowed legs area really pronounced. WE had his legs x-rayed as a puppy and it guess it's more common on some dogs than others. It's just one more thing to love about him.


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## lise

Chica'sMom said:


> Lise, I sent you a message on fb.[/QUOTEIll check


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## Tom King

lise said:


> Easty Westy is just a saying. CD or chondodyplasia (spelling may be wrong) is why the feet are like that


Actually, easty-westy can be simply because of how the elbows interact with the shape of the ribcage. If the ribcage is really narrow, or very heart shaped, the feet will turn out simply because of the way the shoulder assembly lays on the ribcage, allowing the elbows to tuck in more than ideal. That's one of the functions of "well sprung ribs". They help put the elbows in proper alignment.

It's probably nothing to worry about. Not going down steps, and not wanting to jump off stuff can also be about shoulder layback. If the shoulders are straight (in other words 25 degrees or less, the dog can't extend its front legs out in front easily enough to be comfortable catching itself going down.

These are conformation issues, and not really health issues. Hopefully, he has nothing to worry about other than not being the world's greatest athlete.


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## lise

So the vet thinks that because Ted is showing no signs of limping or pain that his legs are just bowed, not CD. He will recommend an orthopedic specialist at any time but he said now we should just let him finish growing. He does have Grade 1 luxating patella in both rear legs which again the Vet said is really common and nothing to worry about usually. The only thing he can see Ted having is some arthritis in his front bowed legs when he is older. I have put a call in to the breeder for any advice that she may have. Thanks for all the support as usual!


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## HalleBerry

I'm really glad about the news about Ted's front legs - yippee hurray!!!!! However, I'm not sure that grade I patellas should be considered common? Especially bilateral?


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## lise

HalleBerry said:


> I'm really glad about the news about Ted's front legs - yippee hurray!!!!! However, I'm not sure that grade I patellas should be considered common? Especially bilateral?


He said there are so many owners of dogs that don't even know what it is and when told, completely ignore it. He said he sees it alot in small breeds and can't guarantee that nothing will come of it but that since he is so small and its so mild that it shouldnt be an issue.


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## HalleBerry

I get that part  and I would believe that it will most likely never bother him. However, I think you should talk to your breeder about it - it should NOT be considered "normal" in that sense. I don't always word things well...


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## lise

HalleBerry said:


> I get that part  and I would believe that it will most likely never bother him. However, I think you should talk to your breeder about it - it should NOT be considered "normal" in that sense. I don't always word things well...


I have put a call into her (my breeder)


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## HalleBerry

Wonderful - it sounds like you should be able to do everything with Ted that you wanted - yippee!!!!


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## lise

Hopefully so. He had an overbite when he was smaller and he outgrew that. They said his bite is perfect now


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## lfung5

Grade 1 is really low. Keep him trim. Don't let him get overweight. Fred had a grade 3 in one leg and 2-3 in the other, as a pup.. He is now 7 years old and the one got bad enough to need surgery last year. The other knee is about a 3-4 now and might need surgery down the road.


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## lise

I'm feeling very scared about what to do. It's been said now by some members that its bad that he has more than one thing wrong with him, which is what I thought when I started this thread. I paid a lot of $ to get a sound dog. So far he has had an overbite ( which has since corrected itself) and now issues with both his front legs and back legs, all at 10 months old. What else is going to creep up?


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## JCChaplin

Hi. Just to put your mind at ease a little, I had the same thing happen with Charlie when he got shaved because of blowing coat, around 1 year. I was panicked but the vet said it was mild. he is 5 1/2 now and he has never had a problem. From what I read, Cd has health problems associated with it but my hav seems to just have easy/ westy paws without health problems. I don't have experience with the luxating patellar, sorry.


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## HalleBerry

Hopefully your breeder will get back to you shortly, and you can talk to them about your concerns. I know it's scary - but they are the right person to talk to next.


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## Sparkle

Hi, Lise, just saw your postings about Ted's legs. I understand your being upset, they are very expensive & you trust your breeder to sell you a sound pup. I have a feeling that you're not thinking about returning Ted, you're thinking in terms of the breeder sharing cost of potential surgeries, right? Please just love on Ted tonight, and let him know he's perfect the way he is! It just breaks my heart to think that our little Ted could have issues down the road. But he could still be a great therapy dog. Kallie sends Ted hugs & kisses! Hope the breeder gets back with you soon!


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## lise

I am not counting out returning Ted. Not only the expense but the more I look up his issues the more I think he has a long road ahead of him. He has issues with all 4 legs. The front being one thing and the back another. They may very well playoff of each other. I wish the breeder would return my call


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## lfung5

I understand your concern. i had the same thing happen to me with a new car I bought. It had so many problems within the first 10,000 miles. I worried about what was going to happen down the road if it already had so many problems. So I took a loss and traded it in for a new car after only owning it for 6 month. 

But this is an animal we are talking about and he has bonded with you. I understand how you feel but there are no guarantees that a new pup won't wind up with health issues and maybe even worse health issues. His front legs are fine and there is no proof that bowed legs will mean health issues. The back patellas are only a grade one and may never need surgery. He may never show symptoms. Fred has a grade 3-4 and never shows symptoms. He even hikes miles every day with no problem. I do hope you decide to hang in there with the little guy....


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## lise

It would be a lot easier if the breeder would call


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## lise

The vet did say that the way he carries his bowed leg may affect the back legs


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## lise

lfung5 said:


> I understand your concern. i had the same thing happen to me with a new car I bought. It had so many problems within the first 10,000 miles. I worried about what was going to happen down the road if it already had so many problems. So I took a loss and traded it in for a new car after only owning it for 6 month.
> 
> But this is an animal we are talking about and he has bonded with you. I understand how you feel but there are no guarantees that a new pup won't wind up with health issues and maybe even worse health issues. His front legs are fine and there is no proof that bowed legs will mean health issues. The back patellas are only a grade one and may never need surgery. He may never show symptoms. Fred has a grade 3-4 and never shows symptoms. He even hikes miles every day with no problem. I do hope you decide to hang in there with the little guy....


I would never compare Ted to a car. I have been through many tragedies in my life, so maybe I'm a bit harder than most. I am looking at all options but I also have to look at reality too. My last dog was a Scotty whom I had until his passing last April. Soon after I got him, I found out he had Scotty cramp and then he had seizures. I kept him and loved him until he was diagnosed with bone cancer at 12. The Vet recommended that he be put down. He died in my arms. My previous Scotty died at 8 from bladder cancer. I am not taking this lightly but at the same time I had discussed these things with my breeder and she was well aware of my issues with health checks. From what I hear now, she must have known that his legs were bowed and that he had an overbite. Not even sure if she would have been able to tell about his Lp too. 
I M so very sad for Ted and for myself. I really thought that this time, I would luck in. If I don't keep Ted it will devastate me and him.


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## lfung5

When you put it that way it makes me understand your position better. I do feel for both of you and know it must be heartbreaking for you. I wish this was an easier decision but this is really a tough one... I hope your breeder calls you back.


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## emichel

Lise -- If you know that it would devastate both you and Ted to give him up, I don't understand why you would even consider it. I think you need to buck up a little. I don't mean to sound harsh, and I don't even know you, really, except through these forums, of course. On the other hand, I guess I do feel particularly bonded to you in a way, because we got our puppies within a week of one another, as I recall. I remember vividly your excitement before bringing Ted home, and went through the counting down of days, even hours and minutes, right along with you as I anticipated bringing home my Benjamin. All I can say is, I would never give up Benjamin, no matter what health problems he might have. I would no sooner return him to the breeder than I would cut out my own heart and give it to her. That's about how it would feel. I don't want to presume to psychoanalyze what is going on with you or anything, but I would imagine it involves feelings of anger, resentment, betrayal, or whatever, towards the breeder. You have been through a lot of grief with previous dogs, and did all you could to ensure getting a healthy dog, so you could avoid those kinds of heartbreaks in the future. Well, to me it certainly seems reasonable that Ted should have come with some kind of guarantee, in the sense of the breeder paying some of the costs of his health care, and I can completely understand that you would be upset that she hasn't yet phoned you back. Hopefully she will soon, and make good on assisting financially with costs involved. Aside from that, to be honest it is hard for me to understand, knowing from your posts how much you love Ted, why you would consider giving him back. Reality check here -- you are not talking about cancer or some kind of fatal illness here. Overbite that has now resolved? Big deal! Others more knowledgeable than I have pointed out that it is likely that his leg problems will not even be all that limitining. He is the same Ted in heart and spirit and personality (and cuteness), for pete's sake! 

All that having been said -- I am very sorry that you have to go through this with your baby. We love our dogs so much that it is hard to be rational. My Benjamin is currently dealing with an infected cut, and I went through 2 days of grief feeling so sad that I might have caused it (a separate post, to come). I can only imagine what you are going through, but Ted needs you! I very much hope that the breeder is honorable and comes through with some financial assitance for costs incurred. We're all wishing you and Ted all the best.


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## emichel

P.S. Also, Lise, I have no judgements if you do decide that you want to return Ted to the breeder, since I know you went through a lot with other dogs, and as I said I don't even know you and all of the factors involved. I just needed to say that.


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## FancyNancy

Just to chime in here - my Henry's legs are bowed too. I dont know if it's CD or not but I've decided to just deal with it when or if it becomes an issue. I've got lots of stuff wrong with me too at this point so we're a good pair. I wish you the best with little Ted - I think he is the cutest thing ever!


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## lise

All good, I have a tough skin. I have been privately told that Teds issues may very well play off of each other. Because he doesn't stand properly because of his bowed legs it may very well affect his back legs and progress the LP. I do not believe in giving dogs back to the breeder but in this case, right now it is a consideration. Nothing is written in stone. I don't want Ted suffering through operation after operation so that I can feel better. If the breeder can convince me that Ted won't suffer, then maybe I will not be giving him back. No decisions have been made but I sure wish the breeder would give me a call.


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## lise

FancyNancy said:


> Just to chime in here - my Henry's legs are bowed too. I dont know if it's CD or not but I've decided to just deal with it when or if it becomes an issue. I've got lots of stuff wrong with me too at this point so we're a good pair. I wish you the best with little Ted - I think he is the cutest thing ever!


I wish that Ted just had the bowed legs but I'm facing luxating patella in both back legs too


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## MopTop Havanese

I am sorry to hear about the diagnosis for Ted. When you do talk with your breeder, maybe you can ask about getting a refund of the ammount you paid for him, instead of returning him. That would be a win-win for both of you! You would have the $$ to put toward LP surgery if it's needed down the road and you get to keep your best friend too!!


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## Sparkle

lise said:


> If the breeder can convince me that Ted won't suffer, then maybe I will not be giving him back.QUOTE]
> 
> Lise, please don't make your decision based on what the breeder says. She most likely would never say "yes, he will definitely suffer". Instead, rely on your vet's advise. Even get a second opinion from another vet or specialist. If the breeder isn't even returning your call, I'm suspecting she knows there must be a problem.
> 
> With all that's been said & advised on this thread, you are the one that has to live with the possibilities of Ted's issues. I would never presume to judge you. I hear you, you've dealt with severe problems with previous dogs and you just don't want to go there again. You feel betrayed by your breeder. My prayers are with you, no matter what you decide. You have a very tough decision to make. Sometimes we can't let our hearts override out heads.


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## rokipiki

Lise, I really understand you! Whole my life I have been dealing with seriousli sick memebers of my family. A lot of suffering, a lot of dieing and lot od sorrow and depression. When I got Roki I was 50 yrs old and had the same idea to have quiet and fun life with him after 50 yrs of misery! But after 14 months it turned out thar Roki has some health issues, skin and gastrointestinal, that he is delicate dog... Nothing reallly serious and life threatening, but I soon I realized that Roki needs special attention, home cooked food, special shampoos and supplements and that from time to time (quite regularly) he will need vet intervention. It gets worse when he is put under extreme stress. We went to dog show and he did great there, got all ribbons and titles, but together with that he got fleas and skin outbreak from them. So I decidesd not to go to a dog show again. When I was waiting for him I imagined us going to all those gdog shows and winning titles, but now I know that it is too much for him. he likes his agility playdates and RLH-ing in our park with his friends. We also visit some children with cerebral palsy and Roki is really good with them. 
Once I told whole story of my life to a friend, she told me that God sent me that fragile boy Roki to me because I know how to take care of sick and was shure that I am not going to give him up! Maybe you are the same kind of person, kind of Ted's angel who will take are that he is OK. 
I remember that Ted was premature and so small when you got him. Maybe that is the reason all those things are happening. I would go to ortopedic specialist. Maybe he needs some good supplements for bones and joints because he is still growing. i have read that somewhere that supplementing puppies and young dog who suffer from hip diysplasia with vitamin C can fix that completely! Holistic vet would also be a good choice! 
When I thing that my dog has issues, I always remember Littlebuddy - Django because I am really deeply touched with love he gets from his mommy!


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## Dory

Lise, I can only imagine what you are going through and I know it's so hard to figure out what to do. I respect any decision that you decide to make, but please at least see an ortho specialist and maybe have them do some testing. We got our pups around the same time and I know how excited and joyful you were when you got Ted. Try to remember that joyfulness and just give him the same loving you always have. Everyone has an idea of what they will do for their baby and everyone is different about how far they are able to go emotionally and financially. I really do hope you find some sort of middle ground and are able to keep him.


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## morriscsps

My Jack has bowed front legs. His right is much worse than his left. The bones aren't straight and crisscross. Every so often he gets a hitch in his gait. It really didn't show up until he was 6 months old. The surgeon said that we should have done something at 3 months. Surgery would have made a 'slight' improvement. 

We just keep Jack super-trim, no excess weight at all. I also give him Cosequin for joint health.


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## Suzi

lise said:


> I'm feeling very scared about what to do. It's been said now by some members that its bad that he has more than one thing wrong with him, which is what I thought when I started this thread. I paid a lot of $ to get a sound dog. So far he has had an overbite ( which has since corrected itself) and now issues with both his front legs and back legs, all at 10 months old. What else is going to creep up?


 Well one thing I do know is that the jaw grows at different rates. The bottom teeth caught up so that wasn't an issue. Zoey had the same thing but I think it was a underbite. Dont feel like that was an issue. I glad to hear Ted is practically fine just a small flaw . HUGS


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## HalleBerry

FWIW I am NOT a breeder of havanese and don't have a lot of experience with havanese - my breed is great danes: 

When I sort show puppies from pet puppies, often it's little things that make the difference, and I do try to explain what those issues are before the puppy leaves here. A floating bite as a puppy doesn't worry me - since those lower jaws tend to grow more slowly, that usually corrects in time. East/west in the front is a structural flaw that I don't want to show/breed, but it may never be noticed in a pet. Bowed front legs in a havanese is most likely a structural flaw, but not a genetic disease. It's just not as correct as it should be. Bilateral grade 1 patellas I think would be a genetic problem - but not a life threatening one, and maybe not even one that would be noticeable for most people.

What does it all mean? There is the question - what it means is what it means for YOU. Would I personally want to spend the money to show him - no. Would I personally want to breed him - no. But what YOU wanted was a puppy to love and do things with, and it doesn't sound like your vet is telling you that any of that has changed.

I know you're worried and I hope your breeder gets back to you soon.


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## TilliesMom

if this were ME and Tillie, I would be getting 2nd/3rd opinions from vets/UCD before I even considered anything else... and like someone else said, I would be shocked if your breeder says, "ya, this is going to get worse..." or something along those lines.
I'm sorry you are having to deal with this, but as someone else said, Ted is still YOUR baby, and that hasn't changed.


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## lfung5

Bella's breeder gave me all my money back that I paid for her to put toward her liver surgery. The surgery in total was 4000.00. Her breeder put 1750.00 on her own credit card to help with the cost. It never crossed my mind to give her back but that's me and these guys are my children. Dogs mean different things to different people. Not everyone spoils their dogs like I do. So I'm trying to understand you considering returning Ted. I can't say I agree with it, but I can see where you are coming from. If that's what you decide to do, it's not my place to judge you. You have your reasons for doing so and I just wish you luck in your decision.


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## Momo means Peach

Oh, dear, Lise. It sounds like you are in a bad place, mentally, with the breeder not calling you back and your previous troubles with pets. Whatever you decide, I will support you.


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## Finnlie

I have just come across this thread! Lise my Mollie has CD and when i first noticed i took her to the vets and arranged a xray which confirmed what i thought. My vet gave me 2 options for Mollie leave her legs as they are or they could operate this meant they would have to break her elbow's and insert pins to allow the bones to stretch and make her legs straight, i asked for a 2nd opinion with orthopedic which came back the same as advised from my vet. the orthopedic said in his opinion if i was only concerned because of cosmetic reasons it wasn't a good enough reason to put Mollie through such a painful operation as her legs were causing her no pain at all. she can run, jump off the sofa she can do all that her sister can do.

I did inform my breeder and only because i had read that the CD was passed down in the breed and i though she and the breeder of the stud should be aware yes she did offer me full refund and to pay the £100 it cost for the xray which i declined because Mollie is my dog and it is my duty to make sure she is healthy not my breeder she was not aware of any problems with Mollies legs when we bought her and with that i dont hold her resonsible for Mollie's legs if she had sold her to me knowing Mollie's legs were bowed that would have been a different matter, enjoy your Ted Lise! i love Mollie bow legs and all i wouldn't swap her for the world!


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## El Bueno Habanero

About those luxating patella's. I would go to a orthopedic specialist to see if the diagnosis is right. You see, my own vet told me that my little boy had bad patella's, and was even considering a surgery. But because of my distrust of the regular vets (long story, false hypothyroidism diagnose) I decided to do an official LP exam to hear what the specialist would say. Guess what, my boy officially has great patella's, 0/0 ! 
I know of some other people who have had the same experience. Not all vets are capable of diagnosing lp's. Just something to consider.


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## rokipiki

Anyone knows what's happening with Lise and little Ted? Are they still together?


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## wendylee

On a facebook post Lise said she was returning little Ted to the breeder.


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## rokipiki

Oh, no! My heart goes to poor baby Ted! May he find another soul to take care of him! I hope nothing bad is going to happen to him!


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## atsilvers27

Sorry to read this! If you all remember Ted was also born prematurely. I can't judge her, but can only say that I could understand it better if Ted was sold as a show/breeding potential pup. It is a difficult decision with returning a live pet animal after almost raising him to adulthood.


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## rokipiki

If he is back to the breeder I wonder what she is going to do with him? Give him for adoption? Euthanize him? Oh, my God! I am alway so sad when such things happen!


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## jemmax

Gosh that is heartbreaking news to hear - poor little Ted must be so confused :-(


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## rokipiki

Yes, lot of prayers for pup Ted!


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## TilliesMom

OH MY GOSH, seriously??  I never would have thought, poor little baby ... not judging BUT not sure how someone can do that... assuming she got REALLY bad news about expensive surgeries or something from the vet perhaps??


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## atsilvers27

TilliesMom said:


> OH MY GOSH, seriously??saying, I never would have thought, poor little baby ... not judging BUT not sure how someone can do that... assuming she got REALLY bad news about expensive surgeries or something from the v perhaps??


Yes, my thoughts exactly too. From what she was saying, and I could be missing something, is he has easty westy feet and slipping patellas? There's got to be more, just those two doesnt usually make for serious and expensive health problems, patellas it depends, but e/w feet is usually just cosmetic...


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## Sparkle

Please everyone, remember Lise's excitement before getting Ted, and her love for him afterward. She was a very smart contributor to this forum, helping any/all new owners if she could give them any advise. I'm sure if she's returning Ted, it's not been an easy decision at all for her to make. We only know what's been stated here on this post. After feeling attacked, Lise has completely backed away from posting. We have no way of knowing if there are any other things going on in her life that may be influencing her decision. For me to feel the need to give Kallie back would absolutely rip out my heart, but Lise's doing what she feels is best. So let's not crucify her. Remember, we can only walk in our own shoes. I wish she'd chime back in & at least tell us all goodbye. Miss her!


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## atsilvers27

Sparkle said:


> Please everyone, remember Lise's excitement before getting Ted, and her love for him afterward. She was a very smart contributor to this forum, helping any/all new owners if she could give them any advise. I'm sure if she's returning Ted, it's not been an easy decision at all for her to make. We only know what's been stated here on this post. After feeling attacked, Lise has completely backed away from posting. We have no way of knowing if there are any other things going on in her life that may be influencing her decision. For me to feel the need to give Kallie back would absolutely rip out my heart, but Lise's doing what she feels is best. So let's not crucify her. Remember, we can only walk in our own shoes. I wish she'd chime back in & at least tell us all goodbye. Miss her!


I think it's exactly for that reason that it is a bit shocking. Her excitement over the puppy got a lot of attention. I'm sorry that she felt attacked but it is difficult to return a pet dog at 10 months for easty westy feet and slipping patellas. The pup was not a show pup and I don't think the breeder was a show breeder (which would have a lower chance of both issues). So it is a hard lesson for her. There was another member who returned her puppy for severe allergies, if I remember, and she continued to post after she replaced her dog. Sorry she decided to leave the forum, but people have a hard time relating esp after all the fanfare while she got the puppy.


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## jemmax

Does anyone keep in touch with Lise to find out where Ted is ? A while back someone had a situation where another forum member stepped in to help rehome a dog (sorry I don't remember who) - if it really is just E-W maybe the same could happen for Ted ???


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## Sparkle

jemmax said:


> Does anyone keep in touch with Lise to find out where Ted is ? A while back someone had a situation where another forum member stepped in to help rehome a dog (sorry I don't remember who) - if it really is just E-W maybe the same could happen for Ted ???


An excellent idea! If we only knew how to get in touch w/her. But by now he's probably gone back to the breeder. So sad.


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## TilliesMom

I can't find her on the fb hav forum either... it's like she's hiding or something.
... we all want what is best for Ted...


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## jemmax

I went to the original thread of FB Havanese forum and asked if anyone knew what had become of Ted...it seems Lise is still on FB although her profile has no real recent activity....so still no answers....


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## wendylee

Sparkle said:


> Please everyone, remember Lise's excitement before getting Ted, and her love for him afterward. She was a very smart contributor to this forum, helping any/all new owners if she could give them any advise. I'm sure if she's returning Ted, it's not been an easy decision at all for her to make. We only know what's been stated here on this post. After feeling attacked, Lise has completely backed away from posting. We have no way of knowing if there are any other things going on in her life that may be influencing her decision. For me to feel the need to give Kallie back would absolutely rip out my heart, but Lise's doing what she feels is best. So let's not crucify her. Remember, we can only walk in our own shoes. I wish she'd chime back in & at least tell us all goodbye. Miss her!


Very well said.


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## misstray

Just went and looked at the FB conversation. On March 5 Lise posted that the breeder was taking Ted back to raise in her home and that she (the breeder) had had Ted mom's spayed as she wasn't happy with the pups she was producing. Lise was getting a full refund. She's decided she never wants another dog again (but the breeder has promised her a free pup if she ever changes her mind).

So, don't worry that Ted was going to be euthanized or anything like that.

My personal opinion is that there was a bit of an over-reaction to a worst-case-scenario situation that likely wouldn't have happened, but I understand where it is coming from since she's had a dog with major problems in the past and just wasn't up to doing that again. Also, I can only react to what has been conveyed online and maybe the situation was more dire than it actually seemed to me. I don't think it's the decision I would have personally made, but I'm not the one raising the dog either so I have to respect Lise's decision as only she knows what is best for her. It's sad all around. I'm sure Ted will be well-loved though, and that's what is important.

I'd also imagine we probably won't see her around here or on FB anymore either as much as we'd like to. I'd think it would probably hurt to come to Havanese sites, even though she has many friends here, I'd imagine it would be painful for her to keep visiting.


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## misstray

OH but now I see someone else has said she ended up keeping him, but left the forum. So I don't know!

I hate not knowing stuff!


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## emichel

I, too, remember reading the FB thread, saying that the breeder was going to keep Ted. It sounded like the breeder seemed surprised by Lise's decision, but planned to keep Ted as a pet dog and that he would be well treated. Pat, it's hard for me to see where you're coming from in saying that Lise was attacked on here, much less "crucified". I think people were genuinely shocked and surprised, even knowing her history with dogs, and were just trying to understand. For me, it was that it all happened so fast. Within a week of finding out that her dog had some problems she had returned him to the breeder! I think most of us, well, I guess I should just speak for myself, just wanted her to think it through a little. Of course she did what she felt she needed to do, and I can only think that it was an excruciating decision and that she would want to stay far away from Havanese Forums as she deals with her grief. I wish peace and happiness for both Lise and Ted.


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## Sparkle

Eileen, IMHO, I think Lise came to us w/Ted's problem expecting sympathy because her breeder hadn't gotten back with her, and she felt she'd duped into believing that Ted had come from very healthy lines w/no issues. It seemed that the majority responding to her were saying "how could you give him back?" I couldn't give Kallie back, as I know you wouldn't give up Benjamin. Look at the other side, the breeder had his momma spayed because she wasn't happy with results. So that seems to hint that there have been issues with more of her puppies. I'm not trying to take sides here, but just saying that I don't believe in judging her for her decision. I hope she's well & happy, and that Ted's getting all the love he needs.


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## jemmax

It is sad she felt attacked but I think it is fair to say everyone on the forum thinks first and foremost of our 'kids' and were trying to see if there was any solution out there that would not result in him returning to a breeder after such a long time with Lise....


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## emichel

I think emotions were running high over the whole issue, no one's more than Lise's. I actually went back and read the most recent FB posts on it, which seem to indicate that Lise might have decided to keep him after all, and I just hope and pray that it all works out for them. "Jemmax" hit the nail on the head, in that we always put our "kids" first, and it is pretty hard to be rational sometimes. I have realized that with the thousands of dollars I have spent on my dog in his first year, I have not bought myself any new clothes, and I need them, so it's time to start putting my needs first a little. Not to trivialize Lise's issue, just to illustrate how unbalanced we can be about our dogs. I actually respect that Lise was taking her needs and limits into account, because if we don't do that we can't take care of anyone. We are all on the same side, the side of having happy dogs!


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## Sparkle

You are so right, we're all passionate about our furbabies! I guess that's why i like this forum so much. Caring support & advise. Best wishes to all.


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## Dory

I am friends with Lise and she has Ted back home with her. She is working with a vet specialist that her breeder recommended. She never said why, but she has decided not to come back to the forums. I just want you all to know that it was a really hard decision for her to deal with and I think maybe she felt like she was being attacked (that's my feeling anyway) so that's why she isn't here. At a time when she needed moral support, I think some people were just not being very supportive. No one can know what reasons one has for deciding to give a dog back to the breeder. Do you know how expensive those surgeries are?
Anyway, I wanted to let you all know that after his evaluation with the new vet, Ted is back home with Lise. She was NEVER going to have him put down and the breeder was willing to take him back to live with her.
I don't know how much information Lise wants me to share, but that is the gist of it without going into a lot of detail.


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## sandypaws

Dory said:


> I am friends with Lise and she has Ted back home with her. She is working with a vet specialist that her breeder recommended. She never said why, but she has decided not to come back to the forums. I just want you all to know that it was a really hard decision for her to deal with and I think maybe she felt like she was being attacked (that's my feeling anyway) so that's why she isn't here. At a time when she needed moral support, I think some people were just not being very supportive. No one can know what reasons one has for deciding to give a dog back to the breeder. Do you know how expensive those surgeries are?
> Anyway, I wanted to let you all know that after his evaluation with the new vet, Ted is back home with Lise. She was NEVER going to have him put down and the breeder was willing to take him back to live with her.
> I don't know how much information Lise wants me to share, but that is the gist of it without going into a lot of detail.


I have read this post with interest but have never joined in. I am glad that Lise is doing what she feels is best for her and Ted and I wish her well with whatever she chooses to do. I am sorry that she will not be coming back to the forum but do understand that it may not always feel supportive. She seemed to enjoy being a contributing member of the group, thus it is sad that she now feels she wants to stay away. All the best Lise and little Ted.


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## JCChaplin

Hi. I have been following this thread but I have not chimed in. Please tell Lisa that my Hav's legs do the same thing and I too was extremely upset when I saw it for the first time. I would like her to know that he is now 5 and has NEVER had a problem. His is purely cosmetic and once his fur grew back after being shaved down for blowing coat, not even noticeable. Hang in there!


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## rokipiki

I wish the best for both of them. I also have a feeling that everything is going to be OK and thet Ted is going to be great companion, giving Lise even more love back. 
I have read the whole tread again. Yes, definitely, we were putting some pressure on Lise, but I can't see that we crucified her. Well, all this is hihgly emotional stuff and I can understand that she doesn't want to come back to this forum or FB. Will miss her and sweet Ted as well!


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## krandall

sandypaws said:


> I have read this post with interest but have never joined in. I am glad that Lise is doing what she feels is best for her and Ted and I wish her well with whatever she chooses to do. I am sorry that she will not be coming back to the forum but do understand that it may not always feel supportive. She seemed to enjoy being a contributing member of the group, thus it is sad that she now feels she wants to stay away. All the best Lise and little Ted.


Well said, Mary. I never posted in this thread either, largely because there is just SO much to a situation like this. I don't think I would have taken a premature puppy to start with... that would have worried me from the outset. And I knw what it's like to buy a dog with a specific purpose in mind.

But we don't know what anyone's financial situation is, or how much medical care might cost in a specific situation. USUALLY dogs with OCD can live quite haooy lives without surgery, but if surgery or other treatment is required, I'm sure it's expensive. (It's expensive every time you walk into the vet's office!)

So I guess what I'm saying is that I feel bad for Lise, Ted AND the breeder and wish the best for all of them, whatever they decide. I hope, with time, she'll come back to the forum... she was a valued member here.


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