# Help! I don't get it!



## HayCarambaMama (Dec 8, 2007)

How can I tell the difference between playing and fighting?? Maybe I'll video the kiddies and utube it so you all can guide me through this. My nerves are raw. 1)It seems like all Bonnie does is bugger Duncan, 2)when I separate them to give them a break, they cry for each other! 3)there seems to be an awful lots of nipping, biting, pawing and jumping on. 
Does that sound right?
How does one potty train during THAT rough-housing??? :frusty:ound: 
Never a dull moment! I remember one puppy video shown here where one sib had pinned down another and was biting their ear. That's OK, right? Duncan's first vet appt is Mon -- I just don't want to take him in missing half an ear or eye!


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## pjewel (Apr 11, 2007)

They will find their own way. When Milo and my girls got together the first few days were tense -- for me, not them. They have a way of determining their place in the pack. I laugh now when Milo barks at one or the other of them till he (hopefully) gets his way. He has no fear, even though they could eat him for lunch if they chose to. When he gets to be too much, Cagney (usually) utters a deep growl and he knows to back off. It's interesting to watch.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Donna
If you ever heard my two when they were playing/fighting, you would have me arrested for being a bad Hav mommy. Shelby will grab Kodi's tail and pull (that's why he no longer has a beautiful plume), and Koi will grab her by the ear and pull her. But, I have never heard a cry or yelp from either one of them. They growl at each other like mad, but neither one has been hurt.

So, you just have to watch them closely, but I am sure it is just the way they play.


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## Leeann (Feb 28, 2007)

Donna does it look something like this?

This was when Monte first came home and is nothing compared to how they are now with each other. Monte is a very vocal boy and you would think that Riley is killing him the way he acts. They sound & act just like Michele's kids lol


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

Generally when playing dogs will play fight with their mouths open. When fighting in a more aggressive manner they will typically snap more with their mouth. If I watch Bogart and Brando play fighting their mouths will be wide open grabbing each other but if it starts to get aggressive one or the other will start jerking their heads with a snap of the mouth. It's kinda hard to really give a good explanation.


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

Leeann, that's exactly what mine sound like. And, yes, their mouths are open, never snapping at each other. Shelby is the loud one - she gives these loud yaps and then will charge at Kodi.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

Donna,

They also usually will stick their butts in the air...tails are always wagging!

In one of my previous puppy classes the instructor explained play v/s agression. She even handed out diagrams of both behaviors. Usually an agressive dog snaps and the hair on it's back it raised.

Leanne's video was a very good example of play..... My Hav's can get really verbal.
Sophie is such a little bossy thing, that Gabe will back into her and SIT on her!


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## Paige (Sep 12, 2006)

My three boys play all the time. It has turned into a fight twice between Preston and Nigel, and I did intervene then. I seperated them and put both in their crate to cool down. But each time Nigel got mad because Preston was always winning in the play fight, because Preston was bigger. I haven't had anymore problems since Nigel grew up. Don't worry you will be able to tell the difference. Nigel is still the loudest one when they are playing, but he is alot louder when he is playing with Preston, and quiter when playing with Reece.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

If you are in doubt, it is probably not a fight. A dog fight is pretty hard to mistake. I tried to look up some examples for you, but I can see why it is hard to video tape dogs fighting (two reasons: planned dog fights are illegal, and most people are trying to break them up instead of reaching for their cameras).

On YouTube, I found this video called "Two Boxers Fighting":




That is not dog fighting! If you cringed right around the 59 second mark, that was still full blown play - not fighting.

Dog fighting is more like the beginning of this video (it is a news clip but it is pretty graphic and cringe-worthy). Notice the aggressive manner, sounds, shaking head, etc. I've only seen a couple of Havanese fights and they are usually intact bitches fighting for their status or two intact males fighting over a bitch in heat. It is very loud and disturbing.

By the way, when Havanese do play, they are hard on the coats, but they don't care. They enjoy the fun part of wrestling around. It makes for more grooming and chunks of hair missing sometimes, but they love it.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

Kimberly,

I could tell that the dogs in your first video were "mouthing" each other..where in the other video they were "biting" and not letting go .

It is so hard to understand how people can get pleasure, not only out of watching dogs fight..but grooming them to! UGH!


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## JAEwton (Aug 7, 2007)

LOL. Katie is way larger then Titan since she is four month's older then him and she is always knocking him down. Poor boy can't even go potty without her coming up and rolling him over. She has pinned him down and gotten ahold of his neck but in a playfull type hold. At first I thought it was a fight but he seem's to love it and goes after her when she let's him up. Go figure.


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## Laurief (Nov 7, 2006)

Donna, these are perfect examples (given by Kimberly and Leeann) of play vs fight. My three all play like Leeanns in a group of three - the noise would scare some people, but it us just play. I hope that is what you are seeing with your guys.


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

When Bogart and Brando are playing they can make some crazy sounds. It does almost sound like they are trying to kill each other but it's just how they vocalize. The first time I rushed to separate them only to have them look at me as if to say "what's up?"...then they promptly went back to playing, tails a waggin'...

I think if they actually start to fight you will notice the difference right away. One thing to keep in mind is that when playing, if it does start to get a little rough it is better to separate them if even for 1 minute to cool down then give them an okay and let them go. Aggresive play can quickly turn into fighting if left for too long.


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## KristinFusco (Jun 5, 2007)

Lito and Nico make deep growling noises when the fight and wrestle. Nico always grabs Lito's ears and pulls, and Lito will pin Nico any chance he gets. I was worried at first at the level of grumbling noises, but when Nico lets out a little squeak, Lito always backs off. I think they are sorting out their pack order, and also Lito is letting the puppy know when he is playing too rough. To me, it is important to let them develop their own games, even if it seems they are too tough with one another. I have to be able to trust them together eventually when Nico is older, so I would rather that they work it out now than need me to interveine constantly


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## HayCarambaMama (Dec 8, 2007)

WOW! This has been an eye opener! I cannot THANK YOU ENOUGH! I will see if I can upload the video, but the pups are definitely playing, from all your despcriptions. But I have a couple of thoughts:
First: with the price tag attached to Havs, can't they rough-house with that $12 hide-a-squirrel??? ound:
Second: I know dogs are supposed to put their butts in the air when they play, but Bonnie rears-up and does more of a "pounce." Does that make sense?
Third: she keeps biting his front leg to flip him. I had a lightbulb go off when I went to play with her and she flipped on her back for me. A-HA! Alpha on top! Mommy can be taught!
Fourth: they are pretty quiet when they play so far.
Fifth: she buggers him soooo much. I think because she loooooves him. And she's been around people without dogs for awhile. He, on the other hand, has been with his littermates. It's funny -- he tries to eat, she buggers him. He tries to potty, she buggers him.
BUT, I do think that even in this short amount of time, I'm starting to see some bonding. It's awfully cute. Now, to the task of telling my parents...ound: Seriously thinking of the trick-pregnancy gig.

Again, I cannot thank you all enough! Thank you, thank you!!! Love ya!eace:


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2008)

This is one I could never figure out: When my Aussie was alive (she was 70 lbs) and Sophie (who is 12 lbs) and Gabe would be rough housing, sometimes Gabe would accidently nip Sophie in the ear or paw. Sophie would yelp and then go ATTACK my Aussie (who was minding her own business laying by the front door) as if she had hurt her! Sophie would actually bite Jude, but Jude would not react as it was never hard enough to phase her. 

Another thing Sophie would do is she if actually got stepped on or hurt would be to go FIND Jude if she was not in the room and attack her! Sometimes she would pull Jude into a dog fight, but Jude never hurt Sophie..just put her in her place! 

Is that not the oddist thing?? Sophie never attacks or trys to hurt Gabriel if he accidently hurts her...


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

And it starts young too! Here are my 4.5 week old pups playing yesterday. Galleta is trying to rip a body part off her sister, Salsa.


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## luv3havs (Jul 27, 2007)

That was fun to watch.
Looks like Momma stepped in at the end to break things up!


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## HayCarambaMama (Dec 8, 2007)

Havtahava said:


> And it starts young too! Here are my 4.5 week old pups playing yesterday. Galleta is trying to rip a body part off her sister, Salsa.


Kimberly! That's it! 
They are just too cute!


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## DanielBMe (Nov 25, 2007)

> First: with the price tag attached to Havs, can't they rough-house with that $12 hide-a-squirrel???
> Second: I know dogs are supposed to put their butts in the air when they play, but Bonnie rears-up and does more of a "pounce." Does that make sense?


Well a hide-a-squirrel doesn't fight back lol. They need the interaction of a living being to play with. They bond that way as well and to top it off it's exercise. Bogart has no interest in the squirrel whereas Brando will play with it if Bogart doesn't feel like playing.

Brando constantly pounces on Bogart that way. He will kinda jump back a bit then leap forward, paws up.


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## JanB (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't have 2 dogs...yet 

But at the yarn shop I frequent, the owner keeps her 2 dogs. On my first visit I saw them playing but I thought they were fighting. It scared me to death and I couldn't figure out why everyone there was so nonchalant, lol! Then one, the smaller one, got away and hid under a chair and I thought Oh good, poor little thing is safe now. Then the little bugger came out and terrorized the larger one until they went at it again. That's when I realized they were playing. I love to watch them now every time I'm there 

Oh, Tessa is a pouncer too!


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

If the attackee yipes in distress and the attacker doesn't stop it's not play. Usually if one yipes the attacker is embarassed. A fight is unmistakable. I've never seen 2 Havanese fight. We have several intact males who get in serious "discussions" once in a while when a strange female in heat comes to visit but it has never lasted over a few seconds, no wounding, and is quickly ended by a verbal reprimand from either Pam or me.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Kimberly, I had to stop watching that NBC clip after only 10 seconds. I was crying it bothered me so much! $%#@! to those that consider this a sport! :brick:

Donna, trust me, you will know when it's a real fight! Unlike Tom's experience, our Havs, Ricky and Sammy, have had 3 full-blown fights where I've had to intervene. The hairs on my neck stood on end!! Their play/wrestling is very vocal, loud, boisterous, slamming of bodies left and right, but THAT?! It was a sound that was very primal and scary.

The times it has happened, was when one of them, Sammy usually, as he is the more volatile of the two, gets hurt in the play. He then changes to Mr. Hyde and it's a fight. There are many times when one of them squeaks in a bit of pain from a nip that was a little too hard, and they both pull back and take a second to gather themselves, then they're back at the play wrestling. 

But when they did fight, I couldn't put my hands between them or I'd get bit I think, but the last one they had - about 3 months ago - I grabbed one in each hand, flipped them both over on to their backs and said "Nooooooooo" in a very long and deep growl. They were panting and even afraid of what had just happened between them, so I stepped in, put them gently in their crates and softly said 'time to rest now' and they were perfectly fine. I let them out within minutes because they were calm as could be. 

It's happened 3 times in the past 9 months, but I have had to step in when the play gets a little too excited and rough. It's like with our kids. You just know when it's no longer fun and games.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2008)

Marj..

Have they both been neutered?? I know my female Aussies used to get into fur flying fights before the second one was old enough to get spayed. My husband tried to break them up one time and got his sweat shirt ripped to shreds! I finally jammed the dog gate between them to separate them. After the second Aussie was spayed the dog fights stopped. 

Maybe this is a female thing..


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## irnfit (Nov 21, 2006)

My cousin has 7 dogs (she's nuts and we have banned her from the pet store). She has two boxers, then got 2 Boston Terriers. The two BT's, Rockie and Stevie, had fights to the point of drawing blood and ripping each other. She has just given Stevie to an older couple and they love him. He is the perfect dog. I guess he just needs to be an only child.

She went to the point of putting shock collars on them so she could stop a fight. Her DH got bit trying to stop a fight. Their adrenaline was so out of control, that even the shock collars didn't work sometimes. It was very scary.


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## Havtahava (Aug 20, 2006)

marjrc said:


> It was a sound that was very primal and scary.


 That's a very good description, Marj.

I have two girls that have gotten into full blown bitch fights several times and it is very freaky and LOUD! Thank goodness for tails! That's been the only way we could break it up.


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## marjrc (Jan 13, 2007)

Yes, Diane, the boys are both neutered. I always hope they don't get into this kind of fighting while we are out, but I don't think it's happened...... but who knows? They are best of pals and love to tease each other, but I guess something just clicks and it turns very ugly. Like I said, 3 times so far, and I'm sure it will happen again, but it is strongly discouraged when it does occur.

When I give them bones, flossies or special treats, they have to be separated as Sammy will steal Ricky's and then snap at Ricky who tries to get close. Never a dull moment! LOL

Michele, that is just too freakin' scary!


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