# Agggh make the barking STOP!



## galaxie

Well Roscoe has obviously hit adolescence. The last week he has been SO yappy, and we can't seem to make it stop. He turned six months old last Friday.

I've tried redirecting his attention by using commands, which works for about two minutes and then he's back to barking. Usually, when we put him into his ex pen he quiets right away, settles down and plays by himself. Not this week though! He jumps up on the sides and keeps barking! Even while we're actively playing with him he will just run right over, drop his toy, and go "YAP YAP YAP!" right in our faces!

HELP!! I know it's normal for them to test their boundaries and get a little bossier during this age, but this is pretty extreme. I'm not quite sure how to go about dealing with it


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## krandall

We found that when Kodi was that age, if he barked in the ex-pen, we locked him in his crate. If he kept barking, we covered the crate with a beach towel so he couldn't see anything. It sometimes took a few minutes, but he ALWAYS calmed down if we did this. He was like an over-excited kid who just couldn't calm himself down.

With the annoying, persistent barking AT us, when his physical needs had clearly been met and he just wanted attention, we found that just ignoring him didn't work during this phase. (and it's still occasionally a problem, though not often) I know some people won't like this answer, but used sparingly, it worked for us. We put some pennies in a Coke can and taped it up. When he wouldn't stop barking, we shook the can. He didn't like it, and would startle, but he always came right back, so I know he wasn't really scared of it.

Now, he's pretty funny. If he won't stop barking, we can just say, "I'm going to get the can..." and he usually stops. In the very worst case scenarios, (and in fairness, usually during the long rainy weeks we've had where outside playtime is at a minimum) we just GET the can and sit it where we can reach it. Then there's not an inappropriate peep out of him.:biggrin1:

We also used the can to solve our barking-at-the cat problem. This worked in both directions. He would bark non-stop at the cat, but the cat teased by sitting just out of reach and wouldn't leave either. Shaking the can makes the cat leave and the dog stop barking, so they both learned that this wasn't appropriate.

The really interesting thing is that he seems to differentiate between nuissance barking, and barking when he needs something. Even when the can is out, he'll bark to go out to potty or if his water bowl needs filling. Of course, we praise him for letting us know in these situations. We also NEVER use the can for anything but the barking. It's not an all-purpose correction... it only has one meaning. I suspect that if it were used for a number of different purposes, or if it were used too often, he would just get used to the noise and it would lose its effectiveness.


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## pacehavi

This is what I saw on Victoria Stillwell's show and that I'm working on with my two who aren't random barkers but will bark at every little noise they hear.

1. Load the word 'stop' by saying the word then treating them. Do this a few times. You could use another word of course--quiet for example. 

2. Then say the word stop when they exhibiting the behavior and wait for them to quiet and look at you. Treat them when they stop. Do this as much as possible.

3. While this won't stop the barking altogether, it will give you control over the duration of the barking.

The only thing I'm not sure of is that now my two will stop when I say the word and come running for their treat--but how long to I always treat them. And if I stop it seems like they will stop listening! I'm sure other members know this last part though!


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## davetgabby

Hello again Natalie, when you pm'd me ,you didn't mention his age. And you definitely hit on something with the adolescence. Here is a great article on Adolescense that is a huge topic and one that a lot of people are not prepared for. http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/it’s-all-about-adolescence


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## davetgabby

krandall said:


> We found that when Kodi was that age, if he barked in the ex-pen, we locked him in his crate. If he kept barking, we covered the crate with a beach towel so he couldn't see anything. It sometimes took a few minutes, but he ALWAYS calmed down if we did this. He was like an over-excited kid who just couldn't calm himself down.
> 
> With the annoying, persistent barking AT us, when his physical needs had clearly been met and he just wanted attention, we found that just ignoring him didn't work during this phase. (and it's still occasionally a problem, though not often) I know some people won't like this answer, but used sparingly, it worked for us. We put some pennies in a Coke can and taped it up. When he wouldn't stop barking, we shook the can. He didn't like it, and would startle, but he always came right back, so I know he wasn't really scared of it.
> 
> Now, he's pretty funny. If he won't stop barking, we can just say, "I'm going to get the can..." and he usually stops. In the very worst case scenarios, (and in fairness, usually during the long rainy weeks we've had where outside playtime is at a minimum) we just GET the can and sit it where we can reach it. Then there's not an inappropriate peep out of him.:biggrin1:
> 
> We also used the can to solve our barking-at-the cat problem. This worked in both directions. He would bark non-stop at the cat, but the cat teased by sitting just out of reach and wouldn't leave either. Shaking the can makes the cat leave and the dog stop barking, so they both learned that this wasn't appropriate.
> 
> The really interesting thing is that he seems to differentiate between nuissance barking, and barking when he needs something. Even when the can is out, he'll bark to go out to potty or if his water bowl needs filling. Of course, we praise him for letting us know in these situations. We also NEVER use the can for anything but the barking. It's not an all-purpose correction... it only has one meaning. I suspect that if it were used for a number of different purposes, or if it were used too often, he would just get used to the noise and it would lose its effectiveness.


Yeah Karen ,you're right. I am not a fan of using coins ,spray bottles and such. They might stop the behaviour temporarily but they don't teach the dog anything. And for some dogs a seemingly mild aversive might be frightening in reality. These type of of things are what's known as positive punishment and can have many undesireable side affects. And the main one is that when you startle or threaten to get the coins or water out ,
you create an association with yourself and the aversive. Dogs will associate the rattling with the person doing it and the person at the door ,who they are barking at. Here is a good article on the dangers of punishment , in particular (positive punishment) for those that know the four quandrants of operant conditioning. http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/punishment.html Also check out the link in that article to AVSAB's position statement on the use of punishment. It is an excellent Position Statement


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## irnfit

I learned with my other dogs that the coins in the can didn't work. When it was just Kodi and Shelby (and I was home more to correct them) the barking thing was pretty much controllable. Now that my DD's dogs live with us and I am out of the house more, it has gotten out of control. We're working on it and I am trying to get everyone else in the house to do the same thing. It doesn't help if I give them a "no bark" command and someone else just screams at them to shut up. :frusty:


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## davetgabby

I hear you Michele, yeah getting EVERYONE on board is key. The more noise you make when a dog is barking ,the more noise he will make.. LOL


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## sprorchid

Hi,
I'm brand spankin' new to the forum. I'm a little bummed about this thread, b/c my pup is 4 months old and only barks when he wants something, which is very very rarely. I like it like that.

Something a trainer told me, might not work for you, is train the behavior you want to control, then theoretically they will only do it on 'cue' for a treat. My pup is a food whore, very trainable... he doesn't bark enough for me to teach him to speak yet.

I'm with krandall, and sometimes you do need some consequence to teach appropriate behavior.


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## davetgabby

sprorchid said:


> Hi,
> I'm brand spankin' new to the forum. I'm a little bummed about this thread, b/c my pup is 4 months old and only barks when he wants something, which is very very rarely. I like it like that.
> 
> Something a trainer told me, might not work for you, is train the behavior you want to control, then theoretically they will only do it on 'cue' for a treat. My pup is a food whore, very trainable... he doesn't bark enough for me to teach him to speak yet.
> 
> I'm with krandall, and sometimes you do need some consequence to teach appropriate behavior.


Welcome to the forum. All training has consequences. The idea is that if the consequences are good, the behaviour will be repeated. That's the whole idea about positive reinforcement based training. We should spend our efforts more on training for the things we want ,rather than trying to "correct " the things we don't want. Your right in the fact that yes, to train shush or quiet, you first have to teach them to speak on cue. He only has to bark once to train him to speak. Have someone knock on your door ,that usually gets a dog barking. Or a clicker and something exciting. Be careful with the demand barking. It will escalate if you reinforce it. Then you will get more barking than you wanted. The problem with acknowledging (and therefore reinforcing) demand or attention seeking barking is that they will start using it for everything. Rather than taking your dog out to eliminate when he barks , train him to ring a bell or stand by the door. With demand barking ,you have to totally ignore it, no eye contact, nothing. Be prepared though. At first your dog will escalate the barking in an attempt to get your attention. They will go through what is called an extinction burst. But if you persist they will eventually realize that it doesn't work and give up. But giving in by one other person or yourself ,will reinforce it again. That is what Michele is talking about. Keep in mind this is for demand or request type barking only.


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## irnfit

davetgabby said:


> I hear you Michele, yeah getting EVERYONE on board is key. The more noise you make when a dog is barking ,the more noise he will make.. LOL


It's not funny, Dave! :biggrin1:


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## davetgabby

:biggrin1:


irnfit said:


> It's not funny, Dave! :biggrin1:


Oh I know, you have to train the humans to "shush". LOL


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## galaxie

Thanks for the advice, everyone, especially Dave!

I'm happy to report that he is slowly but surely understanding that barking gets him plopped right in his ex pen and totally ignored.

I've been using the Victoria Stillwell approach to get him to stop barking at people in the hallway. I walk over to the front door, tell him "thank you, quiet" and then body block him down the hallway and back into the living room. If he goes back into the living room and ignores the door, I give him a treat. So far today, I've been able to get him down to three barks and then leaving the hallway. Even once he didn't make it all the way to the door when I said "thank you, quiet" and he came trotting back with a big smile on his face. The goal is to get him down to just one bark, or better yet, just a woof!

Phew.


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## good buddy

irnfit said:


> It doesn't help if I give them a "no bark" command and someone else just screams at them to shut up. :frusty:


Don'tcha just love it when you get so much support in your efforts to train?  I know what you mean. It's hard to get the whole family on board sometimes!



sprorchid said:


> Something a trainer told me, might not work for you, is train the behavior you want to control, then theoretically they will only do it on 'cue' for a treat. My pup is a food whore, very trainable... he doesn't bark enough for me to teach him to speak yet.
> 
> I'm with krandall, and sometimes you do need some consequence to teach appropriate behavior.


I have one that LOVES to bark. I taught him how to "speak" and it's one of his very favorite tricks. He still loves to bark at the door too though.

I don't really think coins in a can is punishment. It's really just more of a diversionary tactic.


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## krandall

davetgabby said:


> Yeah Karen ,you're right. I am not a fan of using coins ,spray bottles and such. They might stop the behaviour temporarily but they don't teach the dog anything. And for some dogs a seemingly mild aversive might be frightening in reality. These type of of things are what's known as positive punishment and can have many undesireable side affects. And the main one is that when you startle or threaten to get the coins or water out ,
> you create an association with yourself and the aversive. Dogs will associate the rattling with the person doing it and the person at the door ,who they are barking at.


Well Dave, as I think you know from my other posts, in general I am in complete agreement that positive training techniques are preferred, and we ALWAYS try those first. But the persistent barking AT us, and the barking at the cat had to stop. I agree that there are some dogs who are too sensitive for this, but it is a technique that worked well with Kodi.

We very quickly saw a fall-off in the problem behavior, and have been able to fade the use of the can. Now, we ca usually just say "quiet" in almost a whisper tone of voice and he will stop. We don't want him to stop vocalizing... we love that. We DO want him to vocalize appropriately.

My personal opinion (and this is from years of training kids and horses, even though Kodi is my first dog) is that positive punishment has its place. It can EASILY be over-used, in which case it quickly becomes abusive, and also quickly loses its effectiveness. But used VERY occasionally and at a level just strong enough to get the point across, in an atmosphere of positive, supportive and trusting relationship, I don't believe it does any harm.


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## krandall

irnfit said:


> I learned with my other dogs that the coins in the can didn't work. When it was just Kodi and Shelby (and I was home more to correct them) the barking thing was pretty much controllable. Now that my DD's dogs live with us and I am out of the house more, it has gotten out of control. We're working on it and I am trying to get everyone else in the house to do the same thing. It doesn't help if I give them a "no bark" command and someone else just screams at them to shut up. :frusty:


Yes, I'm sure it's an ENTIRELY different dynamic in a multiple dog house!!!


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## ksj123

This post is simular to one that I posted last week about Harley barking. Dave was kind enough to forward me an article that I have read. Harley is mainly barking at people when we are out walking. He is actually, obnoxious. Otherwise, he is a wonderful dog. I have been trying the "quiet" technique and rewarding with a treat. So far, it's not helping. I'm at my wits end. I'm actually thinking about calling a trainer for this. I don't want him to become aggressive towards people, and I feel like he's headed in that direction. Any other suggestions???

Thanks in advance!

Kelly


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## davetgabby

krandall said:


> Well Dave, as I think you know from my other posts, in general I am in complete agreement that positive training techniques are preferred, and we ALWAYS try those first. But the' persistent barking AT us, and the barking at the cat had to stop. I agree that there are some dogs who are too sensitive for this, but it is a technique that worked well with Kodi.
> 
> We very quickly saw a fall-off in the problem behavior, and have been able to fade the use of the can. Now, we ca usually just say "quiet" in almost a whisper tone of voice and he will stop. We don't want him to stop vocalizing... we love that. We DO want him to vocalize appropriately.
> 
> My personal opinion (and this is from years of training kids and horses, even though Kodi is my first dog) is that positive punishment has its place. It can EASILY be over-used, in which case it quickly becomes abusive, and also quickly loses its effectiveness. But used VERY occasionally and at a level just strong enough to get the point across, in an atmosphere of positive, supportive and trusting relationship, I don't believe it does any harm.


Karen , I just don't believe in recommending this type of action for others. Like you said the problem is that it can quickly become overused ,it doesn't teach the dog anything and quickly loses it's effectiveness. The side effects of this are not worth the risk. Punishment should only be used as a last resort and the first thing to try for treating request barking is ignoring the behaviour. Most people give up too early. And like I said the barking will get worse before it gets better. It is too difficult to judge what is "just enough to get the point accross". To quote Jean Donaldson ... "Even when punishment seems mild, in order to be effective it often must elicit a strong fear response, and in such cases, the fear response can generalize to things that sound or look similar to the punishment". And another general quote on punishment from her..." " ... punishment may buy you a temporary suppression of a behavior but remember that you have not killed the behavior. You have merely brought about an emotional state that is incompatible with the behavior you want to get rid of. The dog is too upset to do anything for the time being ... Punishment is like a carpet bombing. The behavior you wanted to target gets hit but so does a huge portion of the dog's whole repertoire. Dogs that are punished a lot behave a lot less in general." - Jean Donaldson, "Culture Clash"


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## davetgabby

good buddy said:


> I don't really think coins in a can is punishment. It's really just more of a diversionary tactic.


Christie , Karen and I are talking in Operant Conditioning terms. The definition of positive punishment +P is ... by adding something the animal dislikes or finds aversive, you decrease the likelihood the behavior will occur again.


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## good buddy

davetgabby said:


> Christie , Karen and I are talking in Operant Conditioning terms. The definition of positive punishment +P is ... by adding something the animal dislikes or finds aversive, you decrease the likelihood the behavior will occur again.


I guess I don't see where shaking a can of pennies is a punishment. If you find a way to distract the animal from the thing they are overly focusing upon you can keep the behavior from escalating. It's the same idea you would use when a dog is chewing something undesireable and you distract them with a more acceptable chew and remove the other. You replace the behavior with something else. When a dog is barking and you shake a can of pennies the dog stops focusing on the original object and redirects it's attention to you. You can then instruct the dog to sit or down or other acceptable behavior.

Just want to mention, I don't personally use the can here. My dogs aren't easily startled by noises, so it wouldn't get their attention anyway.


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## krandall

davetgabby said:


> Dogs that are punished a lot behave a lot less in general." - Jean Donaldson, "Culture Clash"


I agree with this completely. But I would never suggest ANYONE punish either a dog or a child "a lot", and people who punish horses a lot often end up dead.

That said, I've read a number of times on this board of people trying various anti bark collars. IMO, a can with a few pennies is a WAY better tool than that, becasue you can be very specific about what KIND of barking is not acceptable. I don't want a silent dog. I enjoy that Kodi is quite verbal. I just want him to be appropriate.

IMO, any time you have to use a punishment tool more than a very few times, it's not working. You can't up the ante at that point... you need to find a completely different strategy.


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## davetgabby

good buddy said:


> I guess I don't see where shaking a can of pennies is a punishment. If you find a way to distract the animal from the thing they are overly focusing upon you can keep the behavior from escalating. It's the same idea you would use when a dog is chewing something undesireable and you distract them with a more acceptable chew and remove the other. You replace the behavior with something else. When a dog is barking and you shake a can of pennies the dog stops focusing on the original object and redirects it's attention to you. You can then instruct the dog to sit or down or other acceptable behavior.
> 
> Just want to mention, I don't personally use the can here. My dogs aren't easily startled by noises, so it wouldn't get their attention anyway.


The idea with the can of coins or spraying water is to startle or scare the dog. Simply shaking them lightly is not going to do anything. An interuptor is different than what we are talking about here. And there is nothing wrong with using interuptors. Except they wouldn't be of any use for request barking. Hope that clarifies it. Here is our IPDTA recommendation on Interruptors. ...Any interrupter must not be aversive in nature and should only serve to get the dog's attention - or to interrupt an unwanted behaviour in order to re-direct and reinforce an alternative behaviour. Unless the dog is in danger, interrupters that startle the dog or cause fear are unacceptable.


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## Lindzarie

Gizmo was very vocal in his younger months.. he is 2 now. I really tried to take him on short VERY frequent walks and tire him out as much as I could. That worked pretty well for me. Other than that I would really have to strongly command STOP!! or NO! My dad told me to use bitter apple and I bought it and tasted it and it was pretty bad so I didnt use it. Well that is until later when he started chewing on EVERYTHING. He tasted it one or two times and that worked awesom! Good luck!


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## davetgabby

krandall said:


> I agree with this completely. But I would never suggest ANYONE punish either a dog or a child "a lot", and people who punish horses a lot often end up dead.
> 
> That said, I've read a number of times on this board of people trying various anti bark collars. IMO, a can with a few pennies is a WAY better tool than that, becasue you can be very specific about what KIND of barking is not acceptable. I don't want a silent dog. I enjoy that Kodi is quite verbal. I just want him to be appropriate.
> 
> IMO, any time you have to use a punishment tool more than a very few times, it's not working. You can't up the ante at that point... you need to find a completely different strategy.


 Yes Karen anti bark collars are more aversive generally. And I certainly don't agree with them. And I agree ,we don't want silent dogs. The only problem is that the dog will only know that when he barked, that this scary thing happened and it can generalize like Jean mentions. But you're absolutely right about punishment. For punishment to be classified as punishment it has to reduce the immediatley presceding behaviour from recurring. If it doesn't , it's abuse. And any tool can be abusive, a flat collar can be abusive. But we can't under estimate what we think is only slightly aversive. For some dogs a very innocent looking poke ,or whatever ,can be very aversive. Thanks for your opinions . I will come back in a second with a very good article that I think is related to what we have been talking about. Here's the link http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/non-aversive-punishment


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## Luciledodd

Don't know if this is on track or not; but I broke my sheltie mix from chasing cars by hiding in the bushes at the end of the yard. Some farmers were moving hay down the highway and she was chasing and biting at the tires. They were getting upset and so was I, so I hid in the bushes and jumped out at her and yelled no at she got to me. Yes It scared her; but after three times that afternoon, she never chased another car and lived to a very old age. Sometimes scaring them is the thing to do. Abuse--I don't think so.


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## good buddy

Luciledodd said:


> Don't know if this is on track or not; but I broke my sheltie mix from chasing cars by hiding in the bushes at the end of the yard. Some farmers were moving hay down the highway and she was chasing and biting at the tires. They were getting upset and so was I, so I hid in the bushes and jumped out at her and yelled no at she got to me. Yes It scared her; but after three times that afternoon, she never chased another car and lived to a very old age. Sometimes scaring them is the thing to do. Abuse--I don't think so.


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## davetgabby

ksj123 said:


> This post is simular to one that I posted last week about Harley barking. Dave was kind enough to forward me an article that I have read. Harley is mainly barking at people when we are out walking. He is actually, obnoxious. Otherwise, he is a wonderful dog. I have been trying the "quiet" technique and rewarding with a treat. So far, it's not helping. I'm at my wits end. I'm actually thinking about calling a trainer for this. I don't want him to become aggressive towards people, and I feel like he's headed in that direction. Any other suggestions???
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Kelly


I will email you privately again. Tomorrow if possible.


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## ama0722

I have one that I used for my maltese and I know some may not agree with it and if you don't, that is fine just don't try it. You know your dog and you should decide what is appropriate. Isabelle is extremely vocal and I tried a lot of different techniques with her and quiet (and I should also add extremely stubborn and extremely smart). And I used a little squirt of lemon juice as recommended by a dog friend, I think twice. To be honest, it has been so long I don't remember-probably 3 years ago. We still have an empty plastic lemon that we get out when the squirrels make her insane usually in the spring. I am sure she associates me with the lemon because if I even move towards to grab it, guess what... she is quiet and calms down If it is a really Belle monster day, I leave the lemon by the window  I have never tried this with my Havs because I can easily distract them, Belle not so much! I know this is more of a management than a training but at the time I needed to manage the situation and I was failing with all my other attempts and I listened to someone who had a similar breed and dog.


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