# Shaping or Capturing?



## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

I was going to post this as a reply to my First Day at Puppy Basics thread but I think I opened a can of worms. So we've progressed from no response to a down command through luring to getting a down but I think I'm shaping now, hmmm. She would not go down for me to even capture this behavior without me putting the blanket down. I was hoping once she understands my verbal with the blanket she'll get it without it? I have class tomorrow and might bring this video to show my trainer what I'm doing at home. Here's my video what are your thoughts? I don't think I've wrecked anything I just don't know if I'm on the right track. She caught on fast though. She certainly pays attention and I think that's half the battle. http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13073138965/


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

OK, first, I really like a lot of what you are doing. I like that you get her off the mat by tossing the cookie for her to get and I like the consistency of both your tone of voice and your hand signal. Your timing of the clicker and treat delivery is good too.

Also, you are right, this is shaping, not capture, but there is NOTHING wrong with that. Only "purist" clicker trainers feel that everything needs to start as a capture. It's pretty hard to train the very proscribed obedience exercises all using JUST capture. I think that a good trainer uses all the positive training tools they have available to them to help the dog learn the task at hand. Sometimes that will be capture, sometimes shaping, sometimes luring, and OFTEN successive approximations. Some of these will work for some dogs better than others, and most will work for some EXERCISES better than others. (I just don't know how you would EVER teach a go-out using just capture, for instance!)

OK, so in terms of what I might do different with Mae at this point. I wouldn't worry about the blanket. You are using this the way we often use a sit box or "platform" to teach fronts and finishes. In fact, I wouldn
T even TRY to take it away yet... I'd wait until she has a SOLID understanding of down on voice cue and hand cue SEPARATELY (not used together) on the blanket before I started to remove it. Then I wouldn't just take it away. I'd use different types of material, then a thinner piece of material, then even just painter's tape marking a rectangle on the floor. And I wouldn't do this fade during one session, but over a MUCH longer period of time. If it takes you till she's 10 months old (it won't, I can tell she's smart!) so be it. It will be a solid, reliable down, which is tour end goal. (Incidentally, it took Kodi NINE MONTHS to get a solid, consistent stand on cue. You never know what is going to be difficult for a specific dog!)

Next is something I wouldn't even mention with a dog just doing pet training. But I know you have talked about possibly doing rally or obedience with your dogs at some point. And that is that you are teaching the down trough a sit. This is REALLY hard to correct later on, and is an easy fix where Mae is now. Plus, a down through a sit will cost you major points in rally AND obedience if your dog does them all the time. You want to teach her a "fold back down" where she closes her rear and front leg angles and goes down all in one piece. She will, most likely do that if she starts from a stand. It is impossible from a sitting position without getting up first. (Which some dogs do, and costs them even more points)

At 40 seconds she ALMOST does a fold back down, and definitely doesn't sit first.

At 54 seconds, you repeatedly (with no time in between) cue her, down, down, down... You do it in a very pleasant tone of voice... It's not aversive at all. But it's REALLY important to give her time to think it through... A LOT of time, as long as she isn't wandering off. The other piece is that you don't want to set up the idea that multiple repeats are acceptable. "Do I have to go down the first time she tells me or is the 3rd time good enough?" It is REALLY important (and REALLY hard!!!) to establish and hold criteria. But watch good trainers... When I do, I see that those who set and hold criteria best get the fastest most solid results with their dogs.

You do this a little later on when you cue her to sit when she is a bit distracted too. She clearly has the sit, so wait for it. Don't ask again! Either she complies, or in that instance, with a known cue, it's game over. No more fun. (and cookies!) she's very toung, and has a short attention span, as is to be expected. The next time, you keep the session even shorter if necessary. But hold criteria... And that means no repeating of cues.

It might also help to do her training, for now, in an area with less distraction. The bathroom is a GREAT place for training! 

At 2:20 she comes closest to a correct down. Still not a fold back, but not out of a sit. This would be my base criteria for her fro a down. I don't think you are even aware of the different ways she goes down, because sometimes you asked her to sit first and other times she didn't.

She had 3 good downs in a row between 2:20 and 2:52, and you made just the right decision to stop right on that good note!

Coincidentally, in class tonight, our instructor (who is an AKC judge and an OTCH competitor) had us each practice any obedience exercises we wanted first time for 3 minutes each, then for 2 minutes each. These are all MUCH older, more experienced dogs than Mae. Most are working on their Open titles, a few are working on their Utility titles. We were all able to get some solid lessons into our dogs in those 3 and 2 minute chunks. For a puppy Mae's age, outside of class, I'd be sticking to 30 second to 1 minute sessions several times a day. (Like every time you use the bathroom! ) At almost 3 minutes, she actually (mostly) kept her attention on you longer than a dog would be in the Rally ring, even at Excellent level!

I love seeimg her work though. She's a doll and she clearly wants to learn. And YOU have a lot of good things you've already learned in your lessons with. Timmy. I think you guys are going to do great!!!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

To show you what a fold back down should look like, here is a Rally video of Kodi. You don't have to watch the whole thing, but he does a good fold back down at about 25 seconds. There is another one at 2:32 seconds. (There is also a down from a sit in between, but this was a required exercise, not a regular down):


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I loved your critique it was so helpful and nice to hear someone else's thoughts on how we're progressing. Yes, Rally and/or Obedience are in our future at some point. I usually train in another room but the light blew out and I wanted to get her videoed before class so I chose a major thoroughfare with Timmy whining in his crate nearby, duh. I'm anxious to hear what advice I get in class today. I'm working on the "details" with Tim so I'm familiar with fold back downs. I'm just so happy to get a down that I'm not looking at form, perhaps I should be. I know she's still young and we have a long way to go but I love her enthusiasm and when she looks at me with that cocked head, I swear I can see the gears turning in her head. Without bragging I do have to say she is a smart little thing, I love this age.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jabojenny said:


> Thank you, thank you, thank you! I loved your critique it was so helpful and nice to hear someone else's thoughts on how we're progressing. Yes, Rally and/or Obedience are in our future at some point. I usually train in another room but the light blew out and I wanted to get her videoed before class so I chose a major thoroughfare with Timmy whining in his crate nearby, duh. I'm anxious to hear what advice I get in class today. I'm working on the "details" with Tim so I'm familiar with fold back downs. I'm just so happy to get a down that I'm not looking at form, perhaps I should be. I know she's still young and we have a long way to go but I love her enthusiasm and when she looks at me with that cocked head, I swear I can see the gears turning in her head. Without bragging I do have to say she is a smart little thing, I love this age.


I might not worry too much about the fold back down until she understands the concept of down completely, but I WOULDN'T let her practice down through the sit for two reasons. First, she'll get the concept faster if you are consistent about when/how tou ask. Second, the sit first is a really BAD habit to get into, easy to avoid and much harder to fix.

But you're right... She is too cute for words!


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

I agree with Karen. You are doing several different commands but not being quite consistent. The 'down on the blanket' is what I would call a 'place'. It is what I say when I want Jack to go his blanket and lie down. I am not sure if that is what you ultimately are aiming for Timmy to do. I am not sure what role the blanket is playing. My laptop speakers are acting up and I couldn't hear. I don't do any rally or obedience. I did agility classes but we did okay on the platforms with our stays.

I would work on his 'down from standing' first like Karen suggested. You wanted Timmy to drop like a rock and stay there. 2nd best command. 'Come' is first. Jack isn't the greatest at 'down'. He oozes down. I had a Border Collie that went down as if he were shot. It was beautiful. Different mindset. 

Timmy is so attentive. You have a good one!!


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## jabojenny (Sep 18, 2011)

I'm actually working with Mae on this. She would NOT do a down command with luring so I decided to try and capture a down which she would only do on the blanket. In the end I thought, and was confirmed by Karen, that I was actually shaping which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I do use a "place" command too with Timmy but this is for him to come and sit at my left side, and "set" is for a right side sit. Timmy is great with his "sit" and "down" commands we're just working on cleaning things up. His stand is pretty good except sometimes he takes a step so we're working on stopping that.

Anway, update on class... Mae did a "down" on a verbal and hand cue without her blanket, do you believe that? Yay!!! She did it a few times. I had the blanket and everything but she didn't want much to do with it. I also didn't feed her breakfast which kept her attention for treats. I am cuing her to a "down" from a stand so I think we're on the right track here. She was also the loose leash walking queen too, we had a fantastic class.

I'm still looking for that old video I have of Timmy when he was really small and caught on to "down" and "sit" really early. I'll post it if I find it.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

jabojenny said:


> Anway, update on class... Mae did a "down" on a verbal and hand cue without her blanket, do you believe that? Yay!!! She did it a few times. I had the blanket and everything but she didn't want much to do with it. I also didn't feed her breakfast which kept her attention for treats. I am cuing her to a "down" from a stand so I think we're on the right track here. She was also the loose leash walking queen too, we had a fantastic class.


Yay, Mae Mae!!!  I think that part of what was happening last night is that it was just too long a session for her in that distracting space. ...And you weren't giving her time to comply before cueing again.

Also, I've seen MANY times, with both horses and dogs, that you struggle with a concept one day, put them away and let them "sleep on it", sometimes for several days, and the next time you ask for the exact same thing, they've got it! I swear, they practice in their sleep!


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## morriscsps (Aug 17, 2010)

I am so amazed when people have the patience to practice until it is perfect. I get bored so easily. Major kudos to your guys. :clap2:


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

morriscsps said:


> I am so amazed when people have the patience to practice until it is perfect. I get bored so easily. Major kudos to your guys. :clap2:


I find training animals (not just dogs) SO fascinating&#8230; I never get bored with it!


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