# Fear-based aggressive responses (and strong startle reflex!)



## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

It's been a long time since I've hopped on these boards (or even visited them). Lincoln is now 2 and very settled into our home. He's a sweet guy with an endearing little personality! However, we've had some behaviors pop up, and are now addressing them with a positive reinforcement trainer. But I wanted to get any firsthand experience or insight from you all!

*Lincoln continues to bark at new dogs and people, but once he gets over that reaction, he gets along famously with both. (Stands tall, barks, tail wagging sometimes. Can seem aggressive at times. He never used to be like this since we socialized him a lot - but over the last year, it's progressively gotten worse). Started with our backyard and on-leash, now in the house when people come over, and even when out and about (again, on a leash of course). He goes to drop-in daycare at a smaller dog place, and they say he shows no signs of aggression or stress there - does well. All off-leash of course. 

*He has a startle reflex that is getting worse over time. He's become more "alert" to sounds, but in the evening hours especially, when he's chilled out or sleeping soundly, and something awakens him (usually sounds of people walking/running, even if it's in another room), he wakes up in a fight-or-flight mode, charges towards them, and in a couple of instances, has broken skin. This isn't happening every day or anything, but it's something that seems to be getting worse overall in the last few months.

Both the vet and our trainer said these things are all fear-based. The vet said that, based on what I've shared, he seems most triggered by new people/dogs and commotion - that he feels insecure in those situations. The vet said that he's probably always had some fear, which may or may not have been noticeable, but as he's matured, these new behaviors to show the fear set in. We are working on making positive associations for various stimuli, while interrupting/extinguishing his patterns, and then will go from there (this is all from working with the trainer, which we just started up again 2 weeks ago). Lincoln is a quick learner, but I am worried that we won't be able to get him over his fear of things. Makes me sad because we truly did try to socialize him to avoid this stuff, and we didn't realize he had fear/that these things represented fear!

Would love to hear any tips, insights, or firsthand experiences you've had. Thanks!


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## ShamaMama (Jul 27, 2015)

Sorry to hear this. Have you watched the kikopup videos on youtube? I think she has six or so on barking alone . . .


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

I know of her videos, but haven't watched them in awhile, so I will circle back around to check them out. 

UPDATE: We've actually had some really good results in just the couple of weeks we've been back with a trainer. The last few days particularly. I've also downloaded a book called Click to Calm, which I look forward to reading!

After a couple of days of positive conditioning with treats at the sight/sound of the new dog next door, we've been able to lessen the distance before Lincoln barks.....until he and the new dog were able to play at the fence yesterday! Today, we finally had them meet, and it couldn't have gone any better! Treated while approaching and meeting the new dog, helped remind him to sniff her, and there were no signs of fear or barking!

We have now started to work on the doorbell and barking associated with that. We will work towards working on greeting visitors in the house. When it's nicer out, we will work on walking/greeting new dogs again. In the meantime, I have been instructed to treat (to positive condition) when Lincoln sees a new dog, and be aware of his threshold, turning around if he gets too triggered. With regards to the startle reflex and reactivity associated with that, we are being taught to desensitize him to noises/commotion so that he doesn't feel the need to have a fight-or-flight reaction when he's awaken by commotion. 

The weirdest thing is that he USED to be fine with meeting new dogs! But somewhere along the way, we must have missed anxiety/fear signs, and/or an incident that he interpreted as bad. But, luckily he seems to be responding well to the training and we are making good headway! (Side note - I attended a free seminar at a local training facility called "Reactive Rovers" and it was very insightful about fear-based reactivity! I wish more places offered things like that).


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

TamaraCamera said:


> I know of her videos, but haven't watched them in awhile, so I will circle back around to check them out.
> 
> UPDATE: We've actually had some really good results in just the couple of weeks we've been back with a trainer. The last few days particularly. I've also downloaded a book called Click to Calm, which I look forward to reading!
> 
> ...


Emma Parsons trains at the same facility I do, and does occasional classes based on "Click to Calm". (she also teaches KPA certification classes there) She's great!


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

Good for you in getting professional help. A change like your describing can result from an overall decrease in socialization. It definitely is something that must be maintained for life. The trainer is on the right track with a desensitization and counter conditioning excercises. Management can also help if you can reduce the chances for your dog to "practice" reacting. Dogs who startle awake, may benefit from more regular feeds, especially where a kibble or other high carb food makes up most of their diet. This helps to keep blood sugar more even throughout the day and night. Choice-led interactions are definitely imperative. 
Also, looking at your dog developing foundation skills in self-calming. You will enjoy Emma's book , she's a trainer in our IAABC group and it's a great read. This is yet another example why I recommend professional help when it comes to cases like this. Continued success and keep us posted.


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

Thanks all for the feedback and extra tips! I admit I was feeling a bit stuck and helpless, but am now feeling more empowered and hopeful, given the success we're already seeing and the resources I've found. 

Regarding the food/feeding tip - so we should try feeding him smaller amounts throughout the day? We've started doing more food puzzles or active feedings versus just bowl feeding, especially since it's been cold around here (Midwest). Since we've been doing a lot of training/desensitizing/conditioning using treats, we've scaled back on the amount of food for now of course. 

Has anyone ever used Solloquin or Bach's Pet Rescue (flower essence drops) to help with overall stress in dogs? I also diffuse essential oils, and typically diffuse lavender on the first floor where he spends most of the day. I was also told that doggie massages (especially the ears/head) are good. :nerd:

I had never heard of Emma Parsons, but her name/book were mentioned at the Reactive Rovers session I attended this weekend. That trainer (different than mine) specializes in reactivity in dogs - has done lots of research and really knows her stuff. She's even trademarked a name for the program she uses with reactive dogs. I was happy to hear her say that she thought the positive trainer we are working with seems to have good technique and does things the way she would. :laugh2:

Although I *thought* we continued to socialize Lincoln after the first year, in hindsight, I can see that we probably didn't do it enough. He goes to a drop-in daycare 1 day every couple of weeks, but that's all off-leash, which as I've learned is very different than on-leash play. (The facility is only for dogs 25 pounds or less, and has the dogs broken into groups based on their play style. They also have "rest" time during the day where the dogs have time alone. He gets grooming done there, so they know him well, and I've had them give me updates on him to share with the trainer - absolutely no reactivity there!). We've always taken walks and he has some dog buddies in the neigborhood he plays with, but I definitely didn't do enough to help continue the positive dog greetings with new dogs, people, sounds, etc. 

I hope my post helps others in a similar situation - helps them realize that there is hope when you've missed the signs, stopped training as much as you should have, and slid into bad habits/situations despite initially training and doing well. I think the saving grace is that we have always used positive reinforcement training with Lincoln, so he still knows that "click" and "yes" (marker word). He's picking things up very quickly, and I am super proud of him (and us!). 

Side note - The new puppy next door is a Bernadoodle who is going to be about 90 pounds! I had hoped they'd do positive training with her, but they decided to go to a facility that uses yanking collars and ultimately, shock collars. Both of the positive trainers I've connected with said that ultimately, the dog next door may either develop fear of other dogs, or be reactive, due to that training method. So I am keeping that in mind!


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## TamaraCamera (Dec 27, 2015)

davetgabby said:


> Good for you in getting professional help. A change like your describing can result from an overall decrease in socialization. It definitely is something that must be maintained for life. The trainer is on the right track with a desensitization and counter conditioning excercises. Management can also help if you can reduce the chances for your dog to "practice" reacting. Dogs who startle awake, may benefit from more regular feeds, especially where a kibble or other high carb food makes up most of their diet. This helps to keep blood sugar more even throughout the day and night. Choice-led interactions are definitely imperative.
> Also, looking at your dog developing foundation skills in self-calming. You will enjoy Emma's book , she's a trainer in our IAABC group and it's a great read. This is yet another example why I recommend professional help when it comes to cases like this. Continued success and keep us posted.


I definitely agree about management, too! For barking at passerbys, we've closed the bottom part of our blinds so he can't see out. The barking is not existent. We plan to work towards opening those once we get to the right point in training. We've been utilizing management in all areas we can, so, like you said, he can't practice the wrong behavior while we train the new behavior and positive associations. When the trainer said that Lincoln likely thinks that he's making the dogs/people go away when he barks out the window, it made total sense! I'd never thought about that. He doesn't know they're just going for a walk - he thinks barking makes them disappear! :laugh2:


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## davetgabby (Dec 29, 2007)

yep , they learn that barking works. Bachs helps some dogs. Massage also, look up Tellington Touch. Here's an article on training methods and try to have an offleash meeting with new pup sooner than later. https://petprofessionalguild.com/Op...errals-to-training-and-behavior-professionals


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## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

TamaraCamera said:


> It's been a long time since I've hopped on these boards (or even visited them). Lincoln is now 2 and very settled into our home. He's a sweet guy with an endearing little personality! However, we've had some behaviors pop up, and are now addressing them with a positive reinforcement trainer. But I wanted to get any firsthand experience or insight from you all!
> 
> *Lincoln continues to bark at new dogs and people, but once he gets over that reaction, he gets along famously with both. (Stands tall, barks, tail wagging sometimes. Can seem aggressive at times. He never used to be like this since we socialized him a lot - but over the last year, it's progressively gotten worse). Started with our backyard and on-leash, now in the house when people come over, and even when out and about (again, on a leash of course). He goes to drop-in daycare at a smaller dog place, and they say he shows no signs of aggression or stress there - does well. All off-leash of course.
> 
> ...


Hi so sorry to hear your little hav is experiencing this. I too have had this issue with my Cip who is 13 months now. Got him during Covid so it was harder to socialize. I have started now taking him to stores, dog parks (with a group of dogs he knows) and now even new dogs that come in he is less weary and initiates play where he would watch and do a low growl before. Lots of rewards and positive reinforcement has made advances. 

I do have an issue where I have seen zero progress and wondering if he has a sleep disorder. I have an appointment next month with the vet. For now have to crate him at night. We started letting him at 10 months sleep on the bed but he would lounge snd bite if one of us moved and even when he sleeps on sofa during the day if he is being touched while he drifts off will jerk awake and lounge and sometimes bite. Have no idea what to do,


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Chippers77 said:


> Hi so sorry to hear your little hav is experiencing this. I too have had this issue with my Cip who is 13 months now. Got him during Covid so it was harder to socialize. I have started now taking him to stores, dog parks (with a group of dogs he knows) and now even new dogs that come in he is less weary and initiates play where he would watch and do a low growl before. Lots of rewards and positive reinforcement has made advances.
> 
> I do have an issue where I have seen zero progress and wondering if he has a sleep disorder. I have an appointment next month with the vet. For now have to crate him at night. We started letting him at 10 months sleep on the bed but he would lounge snd bite if one of us moved and even when he sleeps on sofa during the day if he is being touched while he drifts off will jerk awake and lounge and sometimes bite. Have no idea what to do,


Just so you are aware, this was a 3 year old thread. LOL! 

Sounds like crating your little one at night is definitely in order, as is a consult with a vet behaviorist. As far as the reaction when he is sleeping during the day, you want to create a positive "conditioned emotional response" or "CRE". So, make REALLY sure that you don't startle him awake. But when he is sleeping, periodically, from a distance, using a soft, sing-song type voice, use some sort of consistent "wake up" cue, to gently let him know you are there. It could be "wake wake!" or anything you want... that doesn't matter. DO NOT touch him! When you are SURE he is alert to your presence, give him some ESPECIALLY delicious treat. Something that will really get his attention. STILL don't touch him, just say something nice, and walk away.

Do that over and over for a month, and I guarantee that he will have a COMPLETELY different response to getting woken up, because getting woken up will, on a subliminal basis, trigger a happy part of his brain. Over time, you will be able to do it less as an "exercise, but he may ALWAYS need a warning before being touched in his sleep... some dogs do. But now you will have a warning that is associated with pleasant things, and that you can use at a safe distance, without putting him on the defensive, or yourself in a position of a potential bite.

I would STILL crate him at night, for a LONG time, at least until you've had your vet consult and see this behavior completely go away during the day. With no history, it is hard to say how this got started, but something has made him become very defensive, even in his sleep, and you need to change his emotional response to that, because he really can't "control" himself in a sleep state. So regular "training" doesn't work. You need to change his emotional state so that he doesn't wake up already in a defensive mode.

Hope that helps!


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## Chippers77 (Jun 9, 2020)

LOL I should have taken note of the date but thanks anyway for your comments and suggestions. We’ve had our Havanese from 9 weeks from breeder so reason why I think I need to see a vet to rule out anything medical for this issue. 

I can tell this is instinctive not behavioural. He had no idea who anyone is in that moment. The only negative experience he had was at 5 months. The tenant renting house next door had a boxer who escaped their house ran o we to my leashed dog and grabbed him and shook him like a rag doll. The trainer I took him too said that would not cause this however I am not 100% convinced. Although young Chip never exhibited this behaviour prior to that incident.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

krandall said:


> Just so you are aware, this was a 3 year old thread. LOL!
> 
> Sounds like crating your little one at night is definitely in order, as is a consult with a vet behaviorist. As far as the reaction when he is sleeping during the day, you want to create a positive "conditioned emotional response" or "CRE". So, make REALLY sure that you don't startle him awake. But when he is sleeping, periodically, from a distance, using a soft, sing-song type voice, use some sort of consistent "wake up" cue, to gently let him know you are there. It could be "wake wake!" or anything you want... that doesn't matter. DO NOT touch him! When you are SURE he is alert to your presence, give him some ESPECIALLY delicious treat. Something that will really get his attention. STILL don't touch him, just say something nice, and walk away.
> 
> ...


My first "my own" dog was deaf - and deaf dogs have a very bad reputation for aggression when startled (without, I believe, any actual statistics to back that up) but because of that one of my main areas of focus from when I first got her at 3 months old was to desensitize her to being startled (I know this isn't necessarily possible once you have a negative/ fear-based startle response unless you do it working with a behaviorist). She never exhibited fear when startled (if she had I would have done this differently) so I would purposefully startle her and then immediately follow it with treats or praise ... so that she could associate being startled with something positive. Whether she would have been fine anyway or if it was because of what I did, she never had any negative experiences with being startled, bumped into, woken up, etc.


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## Melissa Brill (Feb 22, 2017)

Chippers77 said:


> LOL I should have taken note of the date but thanks anyway for your comments and suggestions. We’ve had our Havanese from 9 weeks from breeder so reason why I think I need to see a vet to rule out anything medical for this issue.
> 
> I can tell this is instinctive not behavioural. He had no idea who anyone is in that moment. The only negative experience he had was at 5 months. The tenant renting house next door had a boxer who escaped their house ran o we to my leashed dog and grabbed him and shook him like a rag doll. The trainer I took him too said that would not cause this however I am not 100% convinced. Although young Chip never exhibited this behaviour prior to that incident.


I would consider a behaviorist, specifically, instead of a trainer (unless yours is both) - it's not necessarily just a "training" issue, but is something that needs more specific expertise.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Chippers77 said:


> LOL I should have taken note of the date but thanks anyway for your comments and suggestions. We’ve had our Havanese from 9 weeks from breeder so reason why I think I need to see a vet to rule out anything medical for this issue.
> 
> I can tell this is instinctive not behavioural. He had no idea who anyone is in that moment. The only negative experience he had was at 5 months. The tenant renting house next door had a boxer who escaped their house ran o we to my leashed dog and grabbed him and shook him like a rag doll. The trainer I took him too said that would not cause this however I am not 100% convinced. Although young Chip never exhibited this behaviour prior to that incident.


Did you write about that incident here? I seem to remember it. Horrifying! Poor little guy!


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Melissa Brill said:


> I would consider a behaviorist, specifically, instead of a trainer (unless yours is both) - it's not necessarily just a "training" issue, but is something that needs more specific expertise.


Definitely!


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## EZBreezy (11 mo ago)

I see this is an older thread but we are having the same exact problem with our Havanese. She is almost a year and a half old. She started having the sleep startle reflex about 3 months ago. Nothing traumatizing at all has happened to her. Is this from a lack of socialization (She’s a Covid baby too)? What can we do. Our trainers and vet have never heard of this. She has also started to show teeth/snarled/snap when picked up or has to do something she doesn’t want to. She’s usually the sweetest pup otherwise.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EZBreezy said:


> I see this is an older thread but we are having the same exact problem with our Havanese. She is almost a year and a half old. She started having the sleep startle reflex about 3 months ago. Nothing traumatizing at all has happened to her. Is this from a lack of socialization (She’s a Covid baby too)? What can we do. Our trainers and vet have never heard of this. She has also started to show teeth/snarled/snap when picked up or has to do something she doesn’t want to. She’s usually the sweetest pup otherwise.


If you read further up, I wrote out a fairly detailed approach to changing the conditioned emotional response (CRE) to being woken up. While this is, perhaps, a rather extreme response, it is NOT uncommon for animals to be defensive when woken from a sound sleep. You need to work on changing how she views that experience!


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## EZBreezy (11 mo ago)

Yes, I did read that. Thank you so much for the idea. We will try it. I wonder if it is due to lack or socialization and noises etc. Anything we can do in regards to that?


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EZBreezy said:


> Yes, I did read that. Thank you so much for the idea. We will try it. I wonder if it is due to lack or socialization and noises etc. Anything we can do in regards to that?


I don't know what you did in terms of socialization, but why don't you start a new thread for that, since that would be a different issue, and this one is very old.


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## EZBreezy (11 mo ago)

Thanks. I meant I was wondering if the socialization (proper, noises etc) was related to sleep startle and if anyone had any positive results from doing something. Meaning it’s not a different topic if there is a correlation. Ty


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

Some of the mods here get very twitchy about people using old threads.


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## EZBreezy (11 mo ago)

Ok


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## KristenC (Sep 20, 2021)

EZBreezy said:


> I see this is an older thread but we are having the same exact problem with our Havanese. She is almost a year and a half old. She started having the sleep startle reflex about 3 months ago. Nothing traumatizing at all has happened to her. Is this from a lack of socialization (She’s a Covid baby too)? What can we do. Our trainers and vet have never heard of this. She has also started to show teeth/snarled/snap when picked up or has to do something she doesn’t want to. She’s usually the sweetest pup otherwise.


Hi I’ve written about my pup Charlotte on this forum. She is reactive to everything and is startled easily. She is also fearful of leaves blowing in the wind. She sleeps in her crate every night and feels safe there. I can tell because she does not bark or react to anything that happens in my neighborhood. When she falls asleep on the sofa at night ( with me) I manager her by getting a small piece of dried lamb liver. She follows me upstairs and goes right into the crate. This is the only time she gets lamb liver as she loves it so much. If I tried to move her from the sofa, she would growl and bare her teeth at me. We have to do a lot of management with her. But she is the most wonderful dog with us.


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## EZBreezy (11 mo ago)

Thank you for the response. She startles at Naptime too and it is so sad and disappointing that we can’t snuggle her. She would love to be next to us but she is startled awake by any noise or movement  ….we are also working on the other issue of biting/showing teeth but I feel like we are doing everything wrong. I’m desperate to do the right thing so she doesn’t get worse. I think our trainer is dominance based and I think it will cause fear. I’m apprehensive to do all of what they are telling us.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

It’s possible that the sleep startle is related to socialization, and a lack of exposure to a lot of different situations and sounds, but some dogs are sensitive and reactive to sound regardless of socialization and can use extra help, awake or asleep. The training described in this thread will be helpful either way.

Just now I was searching for another thread where Karen mentioned something about noise sensitivity in general (I think it might have been about socialization to sound but maybe it was about desensitization) and a few articles popped up in my search results. It turns out, dogs that are hypersensitive to noise are more likely to have separation anxiety! Sundance doesn’t wake up aggressively but he has always been hypersensitive to noise and jumps out of sleep to sounds outside every day, and he also has separation anxiety. I hadn’t thought of them as being so directly linked, and I appreciate that it came up.

this has been a really useful thread for multiple members over time so I don’t want to be contradictory! I think it’s okay to post here if it’s directly related to this topic because the information will continue to grow, and there always a chance that one of these members that isn’t active receives a notification and responds with an update. However there is also a lot of value in starting a new thread with your own story about what you’ve been going through with your Havanese, to get more personal advice and support, and it they can always be linked to each other.


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## EvaE1izabeth (Nov 14, 2017)

EZBreezy said:


> Thank you for the response. She startles at Naptime too and it is so sad and disappointing that we can’t snuggle her. She would love to be next to us but she is startled awake by any noise or movement  ….we are also working on the other issue of biting/showing teeth but I feel like we are doing everything wrong. I’m desperate to do the right thing so she doesn’t get worse. I think our trainer is dominance based and I think it will cause fear. I’m apprehensive to do all of what they are telling us.


Trust your instincts on this. If you were to tell many trainers that they’re using dominance/fear based methods they’d be surprised and offended, yet it’s shockingly common. I suggest seeking out a behaviorist instead, which might mean asking around for referrals and then screening them carefully. There are a few in my area but only I a couple I would use and both have long waiting lists. One runs a training organization and the other does therapy dog certifications.


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## EZBreezy (11 mo ago)

Thank you. We are on a behaviorist waitlist (August 2022) which is a very long time to wait and have these issues. I appreciate your response and may start a new one but not sure. Thanks


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## KristenC (Sep 20, 2021)

EZBreezy said:


> Thank you. We are on a behaviorist waitlist (August 2022) which is a very long time to wait and have these issues. I appreciate your response and may start a new one but not sure. Thanks


I’m also reading a book called ”Click to Calm”. This may help while you are waiting.


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## EZBreezy (11 mo ago)

Yes! Thank you!! I was looking to order it yesterday. Seems like all out. I started watching YouTube videos of her.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

KristenC said:


> I’m also reading a book called ”Click to Calm”. This may help while you are waiting.


Emma is a friends of mine. She's great!


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## EZBreezy (11 mo ago)

Wow! That is awesome!! I don’t live too far from her location (if she’s still in Ma.). My goodness, I’d love to meet her and have her assess our Breezy and help.


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## krandall (Jun 11, 2009)

EZBreezy said:


> Wow! That is awesome!! I don’t live too far from her location (if she’s still in Ma.). My goodness, I’d love to meet her and have her assess our Breezy and help.


She is in Ma, andyou can contact her via her website, however, I have to tell you that she has a LONG waiting list…


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## EZBreezy (11 mo ago)

Thanks. I contacted her last Friday. I will find her book and watch more you tube. I’m so happy I found this forum  ty


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