# Health Testing



## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Hi Breeders. The Havanese Club of America recommends you look for a breeder who does the following tests: CERF, OFA, CHIC. Do all breeders do these tests? And if not, why wouldn't a breeder do a particular test? In addition, what are the significance of these tests? Thank you. I deeply value your expertise.


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## Lynn (Jan 2, 2007)

Rita, I don't know much on this for sure, but I tell you what I think I know and then maybe somebody else can jump in here. Not all breeders do these test, and I think some say they do and don't. I think why they might not do the test is maybe the expense of the tests. In my research the more test done the higher price of the dog. The significance of the tests done on the puppy and past family members is to see if the have or had any health problems, if the health problems run in their family line.


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

Rita, I am almost positive I read somewhere that you don't have to do the OFA test, because the results aren't accurate. I'm not sure though, I'll have to try and see where I found that info at.

I think that's like some say soap the dogs, others say it's not worth a thing. I personally would OFA, but that's because I'm used to golden's who have to have it.


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## jolynn (Dec 26, 2006)

Jodi:
You read that from someone who does not do testing because of their own reasons, probably financial. Responsible breeders test! I've learned that from this forum And just because they say they test, doesn't mean they do! Get proof. Ask questions, ask for the CERF and OFA numbers so you can look it up yourself. We should all be from Missouri on this one! (the show-me State)


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

I know, but I would have sworn I read it here. I'll have to check when I have more time.


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

Ok, found it.

Sorry, it's wasn't specifically OFA, it was just about getting hips tested.

I *knew* I read it here though! LOL Here's the quote.



Tom King said:


> For a pet I wouldn't worry about hips. Havanese hips are very flexible and unless you have someone who has done xrays on Havs enough to know how to hold them you can get anywhere from a Good to a Fail on the same dog.
> 
> For breeding dogs I would also get an SA320 full blood panel with Pre and Post bile acids and a Cardiac test.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

Absolutely xray hips for breeding dogs.


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

Ok, thanks for clarifying. I was wondering about that


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## Havlady (Aug 2, 2006)

*health testing*

HCA recommends CERF(annually) OFA HIPS, Patellas and Baer. CHIC is a certificate that is given by CHIC once the recommened health testing has been completed. There is one more award given annually by HCA called a 4 star award. This is give to all HCA member dogs that have completed and PASSED all required health testing. CHIC says it has been done - pass or fail - the 4 star says the testing is done and all required tests are passing. Some breeders do more than the recommended testing - they do CARDIAC, Thyroid, LCP, Elbows, liver function and bile acids. The more testing you do the better. Nothing is for sure no matter how much health testing is done -stuff still comes up - but the best shot you have with a really healthy puppy is one where the parents have been extensively tested. By not doing it you are burying your head in the sand. There is no line that DOESN't have health problems - only breeders that don't test under the guise of "my line doesn't have any of that" - my question is If Your line doesn't have any thing - then why not test and prove it?.
Testing may not be the best that there is but it is the best that we have at the current time.
Joan Little
JoLain Havanese
www.jolainhavanese.com
Fully health tested and all AKC Champions


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Thank you Joan. I was waiting for you to tune in. I believe in testing. I just was fishing to see what "GOOD" breeders would say. I think Melissa set this area up for the purpose of us listing questions and having "GOOD" breeders give us the facts. Hopefully people look at this before purchasing puppies.

I think having this for other people to see from a breeder like yourself will set the record straight. Thanks again.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

There has been talk of making SA320 full blood panel with pre and post bile acids a required test for a while but there has been a lot of resistance to it. Puppies have been bred with liver shunts and the dam was later tested and found to have a high "post" bile acid level. The test costs about seventy-five dollars and any vet can pull the blood but yet just a year ago there were very few breeders who did it. Like Joan says there are still a lot of breeders who claim no problems so claim that they do not need to do the tests.

Other puppies have been born with problems and THEN the dam was tested and found to be low thyroid. So do we not test for thyroid too. A problem there is easily medicated.

Another small breeder I know who only had a couple of litters with one bitch had her bitch cardiac tested and was found to have the kind of heart murmur that is hereditary. She had her spayed but is terribly worried about the puppies that have been produced. This nice lady is not to be considered a bad breeder. Most of us had never heard of a cardiac test before the last National where they had it on site.

We do as much testing as we hear of. The testing is not a sure bet in itself, but it surely must increase the favorable odds. Of equal or greater importance, in my opinion, is to have a "Health Pedigree". In other words know the health history of a line for several generations.
If you breed the one dog in a litter who passes the health testing the odds of producing healthy puppies are..........NOT TOO GOOD.

So far any of our five generations which go back to our foundation bitch Twinkle on the tail female line (which is all of ours) have not had any problems but we still do all the testing and worry.

Pam knows a lot more about all the testing than I do, so details of what I say about them might not be 100% accurate, but she's too busy with other Havanese stuff to post on this forum.


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## Billbody (Dec 18, 2006)

Can someone please let me know at what age these tests should be done?
The closest place to me that does some of these tests in the University of TN. When will the next specialties be held?


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## Rita (Jan 1, 2007)

Hi Bill. Try this link. I think it will address the issues of what test and when. Joan (Havlady) addressed it. Check with your local club for health clinics.
http://www.havaneseforum.com/showthread.php?t=271


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2007)

BAER - Most breeders test puppies prior to placing them.
CERF - Any age, repeat annually.
Patella - for OFA at 1 yr. Periodically re-examine.
Hips - For OFA at 2 yrs. Prelims can be done prior to 2, as young as 4 mos. 
Elbows - Same as hips.
LCP - for OFA 12 mos. or older. If you pass hips, you pass LCP. You just need to complete the appropriate form and mail-in.
SA320 - Any age.
Cardiac - For OFA after 12 mos. Re-exam annually.
Thyroid - For OFA after 12 mos. Re-exam annually.

I THINK I have all that correct...but check the OFA and CERF sites to verify.

OFA: www.offa.org
CERF: http://www.vmdb.org/cerf.html


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2007)

Regarding the Elbows...I'm not sure if they are doing prelims as early as 4 mos. I don't think they will post prelim hips/elbows prior to 12 mos.


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

How would be the best way to fine a good vet that would check for these type of test? IS there any thing I should look for? Since Yoda is almost 1 and I would like to have him tested any ideas? Susan


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## JodiM (Dec 28, 2006)

Susan, you might want to check at local shows. I know there is one coming up here that is going to offer a lot of the tests.


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

That is a good Idea Jodi where do you live at Im in South calif I will have to check in to that


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## Havlady (Aug 2, 2006)

*Health testing*

Most of the testing is required to be done by Board Certified vets. CERF is for sure. Cardiac might be able to be done by a local vet. Patella can be done by a regular vet - Baer testing will probably have to be done at a show as there are no Baer testing facilities in TEXAS any more. Our closest is LSU.
Regular vets can do the SA230 and Bile acids but they all need to be done through ANTACH for consistence.
OFA hips & elbows is done under anesthetic for the most part - there are a few vets that do it without anesthetic with really great results. Many clinics are held in conjunction with dog shows and those tend to be much cheaper that finding a vet that does it and going to their clinic. You can check with specialty practices - as they are generally all Board Certified in their fields.


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

Thank you for the information I will check on line to see if I can fine a specialty practice


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

OK i SEEN ON YODA PEDIGREE there is a ofa # can I look up with this number ? what does ofa28f cerf 57 mean ? Any help would be gratefull


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

Here is a question for any breeder! ON the heath test what would you recommand on doing for sure? I hear some test are not worth getting and others say it is this is where I get confused.If I would want to become a breeder the right way I would think I would want to start off by testing first am I right one this. I would not want to breed a dog if there is a issue in the line. Example in Yoda line his grandparents have OFA and CERF # but why not his parents any help would be gratfully


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## Havlady (Aug 2, 2006)

*Recommended Health testing*

HCA recommends

OFA Patella, OFA Hips, annual CERF and BAER.
If these four are completed you will be given a CHIC number (pass or fail)
Hips are at 2 years old - CERF and Patella's are at a year and Baer is any time after 7 weeks.

Most breeders are doing SA320 and Bile acids also. Many are doing CARDIAC and some are doing Elbows (with hips).


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I can't imagine any responsible breeder not wanting to do ANY of the testing.

But testing is only worth so much. You have to know what's behind the dog you're considering breeding.

For instance someone contacted us about breeding to Posh. The bitch had passed all the recommended tests. We asked for the pedigree and it shows all puppy mill dogs on the bottom from a line known to have MANY health problems and a sire who went blind from cataracts. The passed tests didn't show anything about the ancestors' past history.


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

HI Tom if I cant get ahold of the breeder but I have the pedigree is there away to look up information on the line I have DNA # and it shows OFA and cert but it does not show a whole # its says like OFA28F and cert57 what does those mean I am very interesed in looking up this information but I am very lost at the same time.out of Yoda line on the pedigree generation is standard one of 3 gen only there are 4 in the line has OFA and Cert to me I could be wrong but that does not sound good what are your feeling on it? I would think that all of them should have it.I know I have a ton to learn and I have to start some where and learn all about Yoda line I would think is the best place to start.Thanks for any help you can give me


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

HI tom how did you know they where all puppy mills? I was just wondering IS there a way I can fine out if Yoda came from a puppy mill?


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## Havlady (Aug 2, 2006)

*verify health testing*

To verify OFA go to www.offa.org and put in the breed and registered name.

To verify cerf http://www.vmdb.org/verify.html

and put in either the cerf number or registered name.

Both site will tell you what is there.


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

Havlady thank you now I did do that but on one of the dogs it told me no match even thow it shows on the pedigree it was cert and OFA is there a reason behind that? Would I want to stir away from a dog that just says fair ? for Hips to me that would be a warning flag


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

ON one of the dog this is what it said can some one explain to me what it means??What does the test mean where it says test 99 ect and what is the age is that how long it was tested for ??
OFA Number Registry  Report Date  Age  Final Conclusion HIPSApr 23 2002 47FAIRBAER HEARING TESTDec 1 2003 46NORMALPATELLAMay 28 2004 72NORMAL - PRACTITIONERCERFApr 21 2005 83TESTED: 99,99,01,03,04,05


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

It is telling you the the years in which there was CERF submitted. So, it would be, 1999, 1999, 2001, 2003, 2004 and so on. It gives the age in months on the web site when the test was done.

Also, remember, that health testing wasn't done until very recently. So to not have info on some 4 generations or more won't be unusual. HCA worked very hard to get many breeders to health test, something I am glad they did.


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## Tom King (Aug 2, 2006)

I wouldn't worry about a fair on hips if I could see the xrays. Havs have very flexible hips and the rating can depend on how the dog was held during taking the xray. If the dog is rolled over one way more than the other it can appear that the ball is not in the socket as much as if taken straight on. Also if the legs are pulled at all a space can show between the ball and socket. It's possible for the same dog to get anywhere from a fail to a good depending on how the xray was taken. You really do need to get it done by someone who knows what they are looking at and is used to Havanese. Now if it's a poorly shaped head and/or socket then that's a different story.


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## Kathy (Nov 9, 2006)

Some good points Tom. I would also like to mention that OFA grading can be somewhat inaccurate too. It isn't perfect another words. There have been many dogs in all breeds that were told by specialist's that their dogs xray's showed their hips to be an "excellant" rating for sure, only to be returned by OFA to have a "good" rating or sometimes even a "fair". Also, when the xray was taken, particularly on a bitch, can effect the rating. 

Any rating fair, good or excellant is passing.


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## susaneckert (Sep 7, 2006)

Thank you all you have help me out alot . At what age is best to check for this yoda is 11 months old. is it best after 1 year or 2 years thank you again for all your input susan


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