# Raw Meat/Bones



## Thumper

Does anyone include raw meats in their diets? I have decided to incorporate it into Gucci's after all the research (I think I'm finally DONE! lol)

SO, I just ran to the store this morning and bought some more meat for the next round of jerky and I picked up some lamb for her to try, they had a package of small cuts. Perfect to sample. I cut up some for her breakfast and I have NEVER seen her eat like that before! Wow! And then, she was SOOO happy over it, she had to come love on me and give me lots of sweet puppy kisses (I guess she's grateful. lol)

I was just wondering if anyone does this, and if so....how often do feed the raw meats? Are there any raw meats I should avoid? Is pork too fattening?

And bones: I picked up a bone from the butcher yesterday. I didn't think to ask, but the bone was really BIG, too big for her to carry around and bury. She ate on it for a few hours and then I chunked it. What bones do you feed? or ask for?

I need to get over my fear of chicken bones, because i am worried they are a choking hazard, even raw.....but I know they are probably a good addition to the diet.

Do you ask your butcher for specific types of meat bones? 

Kara


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## maryam187

Kara,
God knows I don't know much (yet) about dog food, but there's this one thing I remember hearing: poultry bones are a big no-no, especially chicken bones, cause they tend to shiver (hope that's the right translation).
Maryam


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## marjrc

Good topic! 

I gave raw meat bones to Ricky last winter, several times. They are cheap and handy. I did get smaller chunks, but still large enough to make it a challenge for him and for me not to worry about him choking on anything. I'd keep a watch on him the whole time. He'd drag it outside and being winter, I didn't mind where he ate the bones. I'd throw them out once I saw there was little left and I felt a little worried about small parts being broken off. 

Ricky chewed on those things like it was a drug!! He couldn't get enough. When Sammy got here, late March, I gave them each a bone on one occasion. Only ONE occasion as it got to the point where they were battling over them and they were impossibly overexcited about the whole thing! Once spring came, then summer, I stopped. i don't like the idea of raw bones anywhere on the floor or out on the deck/yard. It's hot, too many bugs and it's just .......eeeeewww......! lol

I will start again once the cold is back. Oh! Forgot to mention.... I gave the bones directly from the freezer. I put the ones I'd buy into a freezer bag and pull one out at a time and give it to Ricky frozen. It lasts longer and he loved it. They say if you give raw bones, there is little danger of the dogs choking, but you must not ever give cooked ones as they tend to get brittle and break apart.

Raw meat..... During the summer, I gave them both Nature's Variety Raw and they pig out on it like there is no tomorrow!! Sheesh. You'd think I was starving the poor guys. What I like about N.V Raw is that they are medallions and include veggies and all kinds of good things for them. They are handy as you can take out 1, 2 or 4 medallions and either m/wave them to cook or break it up and feed it raw.

I was told that it's best NOT to feed raw along with kibble in the same meal! Apparently, the dogs don't use the same way to digest both types of foods and can and will likely throw it all up. You can feed raw in the a.m. or p.m. and kibble the other time, but not together. I sometimes m/waved the medallions until they were cooked and then mixed in some kibble which was o.k.


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## Thumper

Some people feed raw chicken bones, but NEVER the cooked ones (those will splinter)....But then, I have run into a few occasions where dogs have choked on the raw chicken bones, which scares the beejeebers out of me! I think a few people on her give raw chicken bones, maybe Kimberly?

I know that bones are good for them, they are full of amino acids. I just would like to pick the right bone, for nutrient and a good size for the her would be great too.

Kara


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## marjrc

Thumperlove said:


> What bones do you feed? or ask for?
> 
> Do you ask your butcher for specific types of meat bones?


Forgot to say (in that whole loooooonnnnnnggg post!) that I've given Ricky beef, lamb and veal bones. One grocer here packages them up for people who like to make soup from them. I can get 5 or 6 chunks of beef bones for maybe $2-3 which is great!

I will give the boys some cooked pork sometimes, along with their kibble and they are fine with that.


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## marjrc

O.k., don't mean to hog the thread, but just thought of something else! lol

I know of breeders feeding necks, larynxes, ears, lungs and a whole slew of parts of lamb, chicken and other animals. I'm not quite comfortable with some of those though. ICK! They often get them from local farmers, but I heard some pet food sites offer them for delivery. Some serve them raw and others dried so there you go. More food to consider! ........ or not ! LOL


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## Thumper

marjrc said:


> Good topic!
> 
> I gave raw meat bones to Ricky last winter, several times. They are cheap and handy. I did get smaller chunks, but still large enough to make it a challenge for him and for me not to worry about him choking on anything. I'd keep a watch on him the whole time. He'd drag it outside and being winter, I didn't mind where he ate the bones. I'd throw them out once I saw there was little left and I felt a little worried about small parts being broken off.
> 
> Ricky chewed on those things like it was a drug!! He couldn't get enough. When Sammy got here, late March, I gave them each a bone on one occasion. Only ONE occasion as it got to the point where they were battling over them and they were impossibly overexcited about the whole thing! Once spring came, then summer, I stopped. i don't like the idea of raw bones anywhere on the floor or out on the deck/yard. It's hot, too many bugs and it's just .......eeeeewww......! lol
> 
> I will start again once the cold is back. Oh! Forgot to mention.... I gave the bones directly from the freezer. I put the ones I'd buy into a freezer bag and pull one out at a time and give it to Ricky frozen. It lasts longer and he loved it. They say if you give raw bones, there is little danger of the dogs choking, but you must not ever give cooked ones as they tend to get brittle and break apart.
> 
> Raw meat..... During the summer, I gave them both Nature's Variety Raw and they pig out on it like there is no tomorrow!! Sheesh. You'd think I was starving the poor guys. What I like about N.V Raw is that they are medallions and include veggies and all kinds of good things for them. They are handy as you can take out 1, 2 or 4 medallions and either m/wave them to cook or break it up and feed it raw.
> 
> I was told that it's best NOT to feed raw along with kibble in the same meal! Apparently, the dogs don't use the same way to digest both types of foods and can and will likely throw it all up. You can feed raw in the a.m. or p.m. and kibble the other time, but not together. I sometimes m/waved the medallions until they were cooked and then mixed in some kibble which was o.k.


Sounds like your boys love it!  I don't mind the mess, I have that piece of vinyl that I bought for the xpen that I put on the floor and I put the bone on it, Gucci got the hint and kept the bone on the mat. Granted, it was probably too big for her to drag around, that would've been a funny thing to watch! ound:

I quit kibble, so I don't need to worry about that. Actually, I am giving up ALL commercial products, even the flossies and ears and crap. I don't like the chemicals they use to preserve them.

Good gosh, I haven't seen Gucci THIS happy in awhile, she was up here giving me those very soft, slow, loving kisses  I know the raw lamb is a hit! Since I have veggies in her cooked food, I've covered that base...but she is definately a meat-kinda-girl.

Do you buy the bones from the butcher? What about ribs? Maybe I could buy a rack of ribs and just cut those up and freeze them?

Kara


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## marjrc

My boys, unfortunately, were dragging the bones everywhere last winter and I had to make sure they didn't go on the living room rug! We had the gates up there, so I could keep them in the kitchen or outdoors. Those aren't up anymore so it might be more challenging. I'll just have to train them! They eat on a towel by the door or they don't get the bones. Voila! 


I was getting the bones right at the meat counter in one local grocery store. I sometimes found beef bones at other stores, but this one place, an Italian grocery, has all kinds of organs, bones and even intestines (no thanks!) pkgd. and ready to go. I would ask at the butcher counter of any grocery store though and I'm sure they'd have something for you. I dont' know if raw ribs are hard enough not to splinter....... good question.

Another thing - I am a little leary of lickies and kisses right after the dogs have eaten raw. I'm probably worrying for nothing, but I like when they have a good long drink after they eat raw/bones and then I wipe their 'beards' and feel a little better knowing that maybe there aren't TOO many germs still lingering! Do I worry for nothing? maybe! I dunno....... lol


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## Beamer

We are going to do a home cook meal for beamer... the kibble is just not working out and i want him to EAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What do u suggest Kara?? I notice u are the king of the home cooking.. or should i say queen,.. lol..


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## LuvMyHavanese

I fed Tripp N.V. raw medallions & he loved them for a while then stopped eating it(sigh). Dreamer never would eat them-raw or cooked. I do want to try the bones but not until winter & they can only eat them outisde. Natures Variety also sells raw bones in the freezer section where the food is. THey also sell the raw food freeze dried so you can travel with it but i have not tried that. I still have some frozen in my freezer that i might try to feed Jax to see if he likes it.


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## LuvMyHavanese

I am with you Marj. NO kisses right after a raw meal until beard is cleaned!!


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## mckennasedona

I feed the girls raw. I use a commercial raw though. It's Grandad's Pet Foods based here in the SF Bay Area. They've been in business for about 30 years. They have several varieties: Chicken Blend, Beef Blend, Chicken and Vegetable blend and a Chicken and Beef Heart blend. All the bone is chicken bone no matter which blend it is. It looks like course ground hamburger. The girls LOVE it. Lately I have been mixing in some chopped frozen veggies and they love that too. A true Raw Foods advocate probably would say they don't need the veggies but Steve talked to the owner of the company and he said he always mixes some veggies in for his dogs as it adds fiber and other nutrients. 
I have given them marrow bones and they love those but can only have them outside. I plan to try the Nature's Variety bones too. I tried the Nature's Variety raw medallions but it smelled bad (not spoiled, just a funky smell).

Susan


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## Havtahava

I haven't read all the comments thoroughly, so I hope I'm not duplicating info or coming across contrary. I just realized something and wanted to add it.

Kara, remember the discussion of the things to avoid giving your dogs? One of the items was bones and I couldn't figure out why that would be, but I remember another breeder and two of my vets (I use four different vets) have said to avoid any beef bones or hard bones because the dogs can break their teeth on it. The breeder that told me said her dental vet said that he has more teeth breakages on bones than anything else.

Yes, I occasionally give chicken necks or wings. Since I have multiple dogs, I have to separate the dogs so they get the bone when they are alone with me. If I fed them together, there would be too much competition and I'm afraid someone wouldn't chew it up and would swallow bones too large. I don't give bones often though, and only supervised. There is still a bit of risk involved with giving the dog chicken bones.

Susan, when you give marrow bones, do your girls have trouble with runny stools from the richness. Someone else did (from the list?) and I wondered if that is common.


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## Thumper

Hmm..That is surprising about the teeth injuries, I thought bones have been a part of dogs' diets since the beginning of time. I don't think I would work them in daily, but I would like to somehow. The amino acids in the marrow are top notch in the protein nutrients they need. I have an appt with a vet-dentist here in a few weeks. I will be sure to bring this topic up (thanks, Kimberly) I figure, since I am going the home cooked route and eliminating kibble, she will need regular teeth cleaning and I am going to take some preventive measures. I have been brushing her teeth daily, but I figure a dentist can make sure her teeth are top notch! I don't want them to soften, I'm assuming.....that would increase the risk entailed with the bones.

I may try grinding the raw chicken bones up in the food processor, do you think that would work?

Oh, and on the kisses.....YES, I was flipped out. I am neurotic about germs and bacteria. She started on my cheek and then I had to give her my hand because I was mortified of the dead meat on my face! ound: I let her finish licking my hand and then it was straight to the sink for the dial soap (which I used on my face too!) lol. I'm guessing, it was a gratitude gesture, or asking for more. Her way of telling me she is hungry is to lick my legs or feet. I wonder what she will do when it gets cold and I am in jeans and boots. lol

Ryan, I am in NO way an expert. I'm still learning the ropes. My best advice to you, is to check out some books from the library and start researching nutrition, you can also join the group at yahoo, it is called K9 Kitchen. What are your reasons for wanting to go this route? You just have to make sure you are working in different foods, and they have a well rounded diet.

Kara


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## Havtahava

Thumperlove said:


> Hmm..That is surprising about the teeth injuries, I thought bones have been a part of dogs' diets since the beginning of time. I have an appt with a vet-dentist here in a few weeks. I will be sure to bring this topic up.


I am sure dogs have always had bones, but people didn't care so much about their teeth either. I don't think canine dentists have been around for all that long (well, at least not as prevelant as they are now). And yes, that's the best source to ask - the dentist. He/she will have a much better handle on what the dog's teeth can tolerate. I'd love to hear his/her opinion if you don't mind posting after you go.

And I hear you on the facial kisses! Eww!


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## LuvMyHavanese

Havtahava said:


> (I use four different vets)


Kimberly, may i ask why you use 4 different vets? I am assuming they specialize in different areas. Just curious. Thanks!


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## Thumper

Havtahava said:


> I am sure dogs have always had bones, but people didn't care so much about their teeth either. I don't think canine dentists have been around for all that long (well, at least not as prevelant as they are now). And yes, that's the best source to ask - the dentist. He/she will have a much better handle on what the dog's teeth can tolerate. I'd love to hear his/her opinion if you don't mind posting after you go.
> 
> And I hear you on the facial kisses! Eww!


Thanks, Kimberly!

I really appreciate you bringing that to my attention. I'm sure the doggie dentist will NOT be cheap! SO....I want to get my money's worth and make sure I leave with as much knowledge as possible. I started a list of questions to ask (I'm a dork!) And I will ask about bones/breakage and also, what type of real bones are safer/better (if any!) I just want to get Gucci's teeth cleaned and I would like to get them sealed. I'm guessing that'll probably cost me atleast $200! :jaw:

Kara


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## LuvMyHavanese

Thumperlove said:


> . I started a list of questions to ask (I'm a dork!)
> Kara


I make a list too Kara, so are you calling me a dork also!!! lol.

I would like to get my pups teeth sealed but i do not want them to go under anesthesia unless its absolutely necessary. So i am still on the fence about that.


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## LuvMyHavanese

Maybe i can have Jax' done when he gets neutered in a couple months. I will have to ask about that.


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## ama0722

I don't feed raw-I just can't commit to it. The girls have a busy schedule and I do too so raw doesn't fit in very well. I know there are lots of benefits though and have thought about doing it. I was also told it is something you have to completely commit to. You aren't suppose to do some kibble and some raw. For those of you interested, I know there was a very active RAW co-op in Columbus. You may check a metro area near you for one as well. They purchased large amounts of meats and split it up, etc. They also did balance nutrition demos, etc.

I do give the girls marrow bones on occasion-about once a month. I take most of the marrow out though. I learned really quickly, it is very strong on their little tummies. The first time I got a bone, I think it was the same size as the maltese. I thought no way will she eat this and she went absolutely nuts carrying this giant bloody bone around... it takes some getting used to! I also make sure she is only where I can clean the floor afterwards.

I found a butcher who cuts them in 2 inch chunks and freezes them in bags which you can easily take a knife and pop most of the marrow out the center. For my size dog that is a good size. I usually let them have it for an hour or two and then toss it. I haven't had any issues with broken teeth, yet and Belle is 5 years old. My vet said for a toy dog, she has excellent teeth though. This is another reason I feed her no canned dog food. He said that it is the worst thing for a toy dog to have on their teeth.

Amanda


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## Missy

Kara, I just can' t do the raw. But I get the marrow bones when I see the smaller ones at the grocery store(are they knuckle bones some are just too huge) and I roast them for about 45 minutes - at 350. They create a lot of grease in the pan. I wrap them individually in waxed paper and then toss them in freezer bag and freeze them. The boys usually get them when we are entertaining outside to keep them busy. And boy does it keep them busy--- they don't come up for air. they have never had the runs from them.


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## LuvMyHavanese

I thought roasting/cooking any type of bones is a big no-no because they can splinter & be a choking hazard. I am glad you have not had any problems Missy. 

Someone correct me if i have read that incorrectly.


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## Havtahava

Kara, I think list making is smart! That way you lessen the chance of forgetting something you wanted to know. A lot of times the vet will start talking about something else and I get to listening so intently that I forget what else I wanted to know, unless I brought my list. (Yes, I have lists for everything in my handheld computer - it keeps everything much easier.)

Shannon, one is right by my house and will take care of basic services. The other one is about 20 minutes from my house and she is a show/breeder vet (meaning she has also been showing & breeding dogs, and she will never shave my dogs unless absolutely necessary) and has a little better understanding of some things, and she is also the one I use for any surgical procedures (spay, neuter). The last two are both specialists: one for my OFA hips, and one for reproductive services. 

Oh, and I have a fifth one that is just for my cat. LOL He's been with that vet for over 12 years, so I haven't bothered to change.

Thanks for the comments on the marrow bones Amanda & Missy. I was curious about that.


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## Missy

These are very thick bones! They sides surrounding the marrow is at least 1/2 an inch thick and they are very hard and not brittle. I know they sell roasted bones in the pet stores-- so that is what I am basing it on-- but I am always very careful and never leave them alone with them.


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## Havtahava

Shannon, that's for poultry bones. They are already small and easy for dogs to chew, but will splinter and puncture when cooked.


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## Thumper

I thought the same thing. I'm glad you haven't had a problem with them, Missy.

I *thought* I couldn't do the raw until I realized how great the amino protein is in them, and isn't destroyed through cooking/processing.

I agree, it is nasty! lol The things we do.

Heck, I have a SERIOUS big time aversion to chicken. I can't even stand to smell it cooking, much less look at the veins and crap. But, I suffer through it for my family...and the princess...

Kara


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## Missy

Kimberly, thanks for confirming that. makes me feel better. How's your foot?


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## Havtahava

It is a lot better, Missy. I got out for my first gardening in more than a week, and I went to a training class for Piaget last night but left 10 minutes early because I was starting to feel it. Thanks for asking.

There are a few breeders who pressure cook bones (beef, I believe) and they almost become soft, and remove any danger of harming teeth. I didn't know bones could ever become soft.


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## LuvMyHavanese

I do have a pressure cooker collencting dust(for my 1 attempt at canning). I wonder if that would work. 1st homecooked or raw meals, then homemade treats and jerky. Now we will cook bones for them too!!! Can someone say spoiled!!


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## Thumper

LuvMyHavanese said:


> I do have a pressure cooker collencting dust(for my 1 attempt at canning). I wonder if that would work. 1st homecooked or raw meals, then homemade treats and jerky. Now we will cook bones for them too!!! Can someone say spoiled!!


Yep!!!! SPOILED!!!!!! I was neglected as a child compared to my Havanese! LOL

Fortunately,my husband is "on board" with the home-cooked meals/treats, so atleast he is NOT ripping me about it. I have a few friends/neighbors that are. Oh well. They are like "you are cooking for a DOG?" you know the type..

Kara


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## LuvMyHavanese

Thumperlove said:


> They are like "you are cooking for a DOG?" you know the type..
> Kara


Kara, just about everyone i know is like that. Its sad because most of these people have pets & buy the cheapest food out there & then they tell you the health problems they are having with them. I tell them to change their diet & they laugh. I guess vet bills are better than better food!:frusty:


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## ChristineL

I give my two girls raw meat and cooked veges every night for their evening meal - they vacuum it up. I give them either beef or kangaroo mince. The kangaroo mince is meant to be good because it's very lean, low in fat. I also think it makes them a bit bouncier


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## radar_jones

All this talk about alternative food sources has made me want to try it once Radar's bag of Eukanuba is gone however he really likes the kibble with the Cesars mixed in but I would like to try some different things for him...mix it up a bit and find out what works for him in terms of a balance of nutrition and variety.

Derek


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## marjrc

My BIL was one of "those people" who was more than happy to buy the no-name brand of pet food for his English Setter. He used to poo-poo me about homeopathic remedies for their baby when the little guy had things going on, but my SIL was open to them and they helped.

NOW ( a few short yrs. later), my BIL will only get "the best" and does a lot of research on quality of food, air, environment, chemicals... etc, etc.... He has an ozone thingy in the home, he quit smoking cold turkey, they eat organic once in a while, they filter their water, he doesn't believe in anti-biotics ... and on and on..... it's too funny!

Now I say "See? Told you so!" Nyah!


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## lfung5

My guys are all on the raw diet. I feed Primal Beef & chicken, which is all organic. They love it! I also give them raw lamb riblettes and marrow bones. I have tried Steve's Real food, Archeotype, honest kitchen and Prairie. They loved Steves & Archeotype, but all 3 hated Prairie & honest kitchen.


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## Thumper

radar_jones said:


> All this talk about alternative food sources has made me want to try it once Radar's bag of Eukanuba is gone however he really likes the kibble with the Cesars mixed in but I would like to try some different things for him...mix it up a bit and find out what works for him in terms of a balance of nutrition and variety.
> 
> Derek


Tread carefully into those waters, Derek.

That's how it started for me  I started homecooking here and there and she realized that there was "better stuff" on the menu and would start flipping her nose up at the kibble, and even the little cesar (which she really used to love). She won't touch it now!

Maybe mixing can be done? Does anyone do both and don't have problems with their dogs refusing kibble?

Gucci is going NUTS for the lamb I bought yesterday. I will have to go back and buy more. The store has them packaged in very small, thin steaks. Yesterday, I gave it to her raw, and this morning I seared it with some olive oil to about medium and she ate it in 2 seconds and begged for MORE. Be sure if you do that, to cut the meat up in bite size pieces because they get SO excited and eat so fast, they could choke from the excitement! 

Kara


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## LuvMyHavanese

Kara, have you tried the cooked liver for Gucci? I was just curious.


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## Thumper

No,

I threw it back in the freezer. I may drag it back out and try it Sunday. I'm cooking jerky today.

I hear ya about the people that feed the cheapest crap (they ARE the ones that have the most problems, ehh?) Like.....the dog next door is always being treated for something, kennel cough, ear infections, hair falling out, etc. They feed grocery store brand food *sigh*. But I guess alot of people feel that way, that they are just "dogs". Whereas we treat them like children/people.

I got the CUTEST thank you card in the mail this morning! Remember I made those biscuit treats last week and I handed some out to friends? Well, I got a Thank you Letter from this dog "Rusty" and it said "I really LOVED those cookies, THANK YOU' and it had inked PAW PRINTS for a signature!!!! How cool!  I thought that was precious.

Kara


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## marjrc

You see, Kara, your work is being rewarded not only by the Guccigirl, but by her friends too. Cool! 

It sounds like you are very organized and doing some cooking or drying every day. Good for you! I'm not so disciplined. I spend way too much time here at the computer, then with the dogs, laundry...... anyway, let's just say I'm NOT organized!!! ugh!


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## Suuske747

I would never give raw meat to Sierra, I know that's how the species of dogs have survived and evolved on, but I think that nowadays dogs maybe no longer have that much of a resistances against all the bacteria and stuff.....
Chicken, because of risk of Salmonella bact.
Beef and pork because of risk of worms even though she'd treated regulary for that......

Luckily Sierra is a good eater, she gets Purina Proplan Salmon and Rice and Purina Beneful mixed, both Expensive stuff. She gets Omega 3-6-9 oil as a supplement. Just because I know that it's good stuff, it's already in the Proplan food, but I just want to give her some extra....And she gets a dogfriendly version of our food mixed with her dogfood when it's meat and veggies with potatoes, she dies for potatoes! On special days she get Cesar softly steamed meals!

She mostly gets the expensive Purina Proplan treats, or rawhide treats as she's a really chewer.....

I'm all for homecooked meals, but I don't have the time and energy for the research, the planning and the extra cooking as we both are on a fulltime job....and it's like my breeder says, the way I do it now, I know that she gets all the nutritions she needs....with homecooked, you really need to be on top of it to make sure it's all in balance....

So great respect to you Kara for doing all that....and I'd love to try some recipes......but I just can't do it all the time....and Sierra is a happy and healthy dog, so I'll stick with my approach for Sierra


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## irnfit

I give mine the soup bones (beef) from the butcher. I rinse them off when I get home and them put them in the freezer. They go bonkers for them. There is also a pet store here that sells frozen bones, but they are triple the price of the butcher.

I tried raw medallions a while ago, but Kodi looked at me like I was trying to kill him. He backed away from it. So, considering the expense, I didn't try it again. 

They like flounder. We had it again tonight, and the two of them sat and waited for their share. I have tried salmon wet food, and they didn't eat it. But the cats did. :biggrin1:


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

We fed raw for several years until early this year. It was fantastic and our dogs loved it! We used both a prey model diet and a ready-made product. 

Natural Balance Raw worked REALLY well for our old guy. Both beef and chicken, with and without sardines. 

The younger dogs ate whole prey pieces and thrived on them. We added veggie slop and eggs maybe 2x a week. 

The ready-made was fed twice a day - breakfast and dinner. The prey model dogs ate once a day - a large meal in the morning when it was cool out. 

Our dogs' diet included whole rabbits, turkey, chicken, duck, sardines, mackerel, and tilapia. Plus we used cuts of beef, goat, lamb, emu, buffalo and pig. To get deals on these items we joined our local raw food co-op. It was wonderful! Organs were included with the whole items, and we added organs from the other meat sources so the dogs would have a full variety.

Vinnie, my late baby, LOVED emu, buffalo and turkey.

Our dogs ate outside on the ground and not one EVER got sick from their meal (except for runny stool from really fatty meals like lamb necks and whole chickens). We cleaned up after ourselves just like you would if you were handling a turkey or chicken in your own kitchen and none of us got sick from feeding this diet. 

April (Chi-Pug) was given Cornish Game Hens in lieu of chicken, but she always tried to steal the bigger birds from her larger pack mates. 

You're going to really enjoy thinking up new items for Gucci to try! One thing I'd recommend, if her tummy is sensitive, don't switch her meats too quickly. Let her get used to one protein before you introduce another. That was one thing that gave our dogs tummy trouble, eating something new when they were still adjusting to the previous protein type.

Be careful of "recreation" bones (ones with little to no meat). Those are more likely to break teeth than anything you might feed that's meaty.

Warning - do not feed raw swordfish, tuna or (if I remember right) wild-caught salmon. 

Wanda


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## marjrc

I completely agree that feeding homemade and/or raw and/or bones isn't for everyone. We all have diff. lifestyles, physical energy, budgets and time. Our dogs are different, too, so what works for one, might have an adverse effect on another. 

I think it's fascinating to see what everyone feeds or wants to feed their Hav ! It's amazing how varied the menus can be and I'll bet almost all the Havs are as healthy as can be and doing just fine. 

So long as we stay away from that contaminated crap from China, we should be o.k.  

Those pics are awesome, Wanda!! Whoa, that whole pig head! I dunno...... makes me squirm just looking at the photo! LOL


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## LuvMyHavanese

WOW Wanda! If pigs heads are what you get from a meat co-op, i think i will pass!:biggrin1: I just dont have the stomach for it. Thats why i am glad meat in the grocery stores dont have faces, i could never eat it.


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## irnfit

I agree. Couldn't do body parts like heads. But mine love eating the marrow out of bones, and it's not bad for them. Also, I don't do it every day. It's a few times a month, whenever I can get bones just the right size for them.


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## The Fussy Puppy Gang

We also fed pre-made raw cubed food to our senior foster who didn't have the teeth to crunch through bone.

Pig heads were special order so if you have the chance to get meat from a co-op don't be put off by what we fed.

If you'd like to get an idea of what co-ops can offer, check out So Cal BARF's shopping cart at http://www.socalbarf.com/order/

The items on the left side of the screen should be menu choices. It's good info for anyone who's thinking about going the co-op route.

Wanda


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## DanielBMe

I've been doing a lot or reading on feeding raw. Right now I feed my guys Evo and they are doing really well on it but the more I read about raw the more I want to try it. My store sells this stuff from Tolden Farms. It does have some pretty good reading on the site as well.
http://http://www.tolldenfarms.ca/

I just bought my guys some raw recreational bones. Problem is I just realized that I have no real place for them to eat them due to the mess they'll make. I guess I'll have to keep them in the kitchen when I give them to them.


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## Beamer

Daniel,

You could crate your guys while they eat the meaty bones. I doubt they will mind, since they will be going crazy over the food...

That way the mess will be contained to the inside of the crate.

Ryan


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## DanielBMe

Well I just switched to a raw diet today. Bogart had diarrhea and Brando was perfectly fine. But they both seemed to have enjoyed the food.

Out of curiousity I emailed Tollden Farms around 8:30pm this evening asking a question about the quantity etc fully expecting an answer some time tomorrow. Instead I got a response back 15min later answering my questions. Now that's service!


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## marjrc

Daniel, it's to be expected that there will be some changes in the dogs' potty habits. Diarrhea is o.k. so long as it doesn't last days. How are they doing now? Are you finding ways to keep the 'mess' contained? Have you seen positive changes in your dogs yet?


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## DanielBMe

marjrc said:


> Daniel, it's to be expected that there will be some changes in the dogs' potty habits. Diarrhea is o.k. so long as it doesn't last days. How are they doing now? Are you finding ways to keep the 'mess' contained? Have you seen positive changes in your dogs yet?


Well it's only been a week. Things are progressing well. Not issues at all since the second day. Poops are nice and small and hard. They really seem to enjoy the food. I'm bumping up the chicken necks to 3 a night since 2 doesn't seem to be enough. Right now they are on the chicken patties but in about 5 days I'll be out and rotate to Lamb.

I also feed them beef marrow bones for recreational chewing. They'll chew for at least an hour maybe longer. Then I take it away and put it in the fridge for the next day.


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## Beamer

Daniel,

Those beef marrow bones - are they greasy at all? Do they make any mess? And which are they exactly?

Thanks!

Ryan


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## Beamer

For all who are feeding NV raw, looks like they just made some changes to the Rabbit formula.

http://naturesvariety.com/news.lasso

Ryan


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## Jane

Beamer said:


> Daniel,
> 
> Those beef marrow bones - are they greasy at all? Do they make any mess? And which are they exactly?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Ryan


Hi Ryan,

Obviously I'm not Daniel, but I also feed beef marrow bones occasionally. They are the leg bones of the cow, cut into 2-3" wide sections with marrow in the middle. I boil mine for 5 minutes just to get the marrow out (it is too greasy and give my boys the runs, but they would LOVE to eat it) and to slightly cook the outside meat/cartilage that is on it so it doesn't leave a bloody mess on my rug. I haven't had a problem with splintering since the bone is cooked so slightly. Then I cool them and squeeze them dry with paper towels. They are not too greasy that way...but I wouldn't want them eating them anywhere I'd be very worried about stains. My dogs LOVE them and will work at them for hours. Some people have cautioned me that these kinds of bones can break teeth, but I also have not had a problem with that - they seem to help scrape the junk and tartar off those back teeth too.


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## Poornima

I wonder if the dogs were allergic to beef, would they also be allgeric to chewing on the raw hide and beef marrow bones? I am suspecting that Benji is allergic to ground beef but not to the Charley Bear Beef liver treats. While Lizzie appears to be allgeric to beef in any form. Both loved to chew on the Pig in the Blanket (Trader Joe's) chewies which are made from human grade beef and pork. Benji is not allergic to it but since Lizzie is. I feel bad that he can't enjoy it too often. I usually give it to him in his crate but as soon as Lizzie smells it, she whines for it.


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## Beamer

Hi Jane,

So, how long do you actually leave the bone in the boiling water for? I always hear bad things about cooking the bones. Is it really that messy if you dont take the marrow out??? 

What about the actual raw meaty bones? have you tried those?

Thanks!

Ryan


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## DanielBMe

Beamer said:


> Daniel,
> 
> Those beef marrow bones - are they greasy at all? Do they make any mess? And which are they exactly?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Ryan


Hey Ryan,

Well they are a bit ... juicy...not sure if greasy is the word lol. I get the Tollden Farm ones from Global. They come in small, med, large. I get the small which is meant for smaller dogs. I usually lay out a blanket in the kitchen and give the bones to the boys to eat on it. They don't move from the blanket until I take the bones away which is usually about an hour or two. I only feed the bones on the weekends though. I dont' want them chewing on them too often because I also heard about them being a good way to break teeth.


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## Beamer

Hi Daniel,

I see on the website they have many dif types of those bones. Which animal and bone have your guys tried? I'll give them a shot! How much are they anyhow??

Thanks,
ryan


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## DanielBMe

To be honest, they are the only ones I've tried so far. I bought a 4lb bag I believe. Still have a few left. I think they were something like $9.99. Even though they are the small size they are actually quite large. I like to let my guys chew them over two days. Boy, try taking them away from the little buggers...it's nearly impossible, especially Brando. He's a growler. Bogart will let go if you tug and say "off". But Brando will growl and hold onto them for dear life.


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## Jane

Beamer said:


> Hi Jane,
> 
> So, how long do you actually leave the bone in the boiling water for? I always hear bad things about cooking the bones. Is it really that messy if you dont take the marrow out???
> 
> What about the actual raw meaty bones? have you tried those?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Ryan


Since the bones I buy are frozen, I only leave the bone in the boiling water for as long as it takes the marrow to melt enough for me to scoop/push it out. Maybe 5 minutes? I don't want to cook the bone too much in case it will get dry and splinter. The marrow is very messy - imagine a glob of pure fat!

If the bone is not frozen, you probably can just serve it raw, with or without the marrow, depending on if your dog can tolerate it.

I tried having my dogs eat the bones on a towel, but they prefer to drag it to other places...my rug, the couch, etc. Since they are chewing on them for hours, it was too difficult for me to police them the entire time 

I have not tried other types of bones. I like these "blocky" shaped bones because I don't think they can break off a chunk of it and choke (like perhaps a rib bone or thinner bone).

Sadly, since we are trying to figure out what Lincoln is allergic to right now, he is not allowed to have these bones until we determine that beef is safe or not.  Poornima, I would imagine if a dog is allergic to beef, that they would be allergic to these beef bones too.


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## marjrc

I've given raw, frozen bones such as beef and veal. They are sold at the grocer's for making soup and are very affordable. A pkg. that contains 6-8 pcs. maybe 2" square costs about $2 or $3 so it's cheap! There is meat, sinew and some marrow in these bones and I prefer to give it to them frozen, so that they work at it for a while. I never gave any all last summer, for maybe 4-5 months, because I don't like the idea of raw meat on our deck or floor! uke: 

Sammy gets obsessed when he has a chew treat or bone! He can start a real fight if he sees Ricky is too close for his liking so I have to split the boys up. Sammy will also steal Ricky's even though he's hardly touched his own, the little bugger. I usually keep Sammy in his crate and Ricky on the kitchen floor or outdoors. Daniel, I WISH they could lay on the same blanket/towel and chew peacefully, but so far that hasn't happened. 

Once I'm tired of 'policing' as Jane says, then I take them away and throw them out. Sammy goes through his in no time, whereas Ricky loves to longer over it and take his sweet time. sigh....... 

I, too, was told it's dangerous for their teeth, but I dunno..... do we know of ANY Hav that has broken teeth on raw bones?


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## Lina

Marj, my vet has said that he's seen pups with broken teeth over bully sticks and I find that hard to believe seeing how many people give them to their pups... but it's hard to tell. Anything can happen, I guess, it just depends on the likelihood of it happening and what your comfort level is for what are perceived as "dangers."


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## Havtahava

Marj, two of my vets have talked about people bringing their dogs in with broken teeth over gnawing bones, so I've purposely avoided any beef bones for that reason. I have given raw chicken wings on occasion, but my last time was probably a year ago or more.


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## Jane

Kimberly,
Do your dogs eat the entire chicken wing, bones and all? I've always wondered about that. Or do they just leave the bones and eat everything else?


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## Havtahava

They eat it all - skin, meat and bones, and always supervised with NO competition, meaning the other dogs get put away. I don't want anyone trying to devour it so quickly that they swallow a large piece. 

The first time they get it, the reaction is always different. Martha was born at Robin's, a natural rearing home, with all raw meat (no kibble) so I expected her to go to town with it, but she gives up quickly. Chicken wings just don't interest her more than a few bites of meat. Tinky loves it and eats it pretty easily. Hillary takes a bit more time. Piaget hasn't ever been introduced to them since I don't do them often at all. Now the girls can't have them (due to breeding cycles), so there probably won't be any given for a while.

If I did give my dogs bones, it would probably only be chicken wings or chicken necks and obviously, only raw. (I'm sure most everyone here knows to never give your dog any poultry bones that are cooked because they splinter.)


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## marjrc

Thanks for your input, Lina and Kimberly. I'll be vigilant about the bones and make sure it's either a knuckle or something small, like the wings or neck. IF I give any more at all. We'll see.


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## irnfit

Marj, I give mine the beef soup bones from the butcher. They are very inexpensive and if they are too large, they cut them down for me. In fact, they had them today. They love to lick the marrow out and work on whatever meat there is. Once they are done with them, I throw the bones away.


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## ama0722

I am going to try and get to whole foods this weekend and get some of the beef bones it has been awhile for the girls and they love them. I just try to give them out before bath day!

Amanda


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## DanielBMe

In regards to broken teeth. I believe that most of the time that happens with beef marrow bones. Those are the weight bearing bones and therefore much much harder. I feed my guys beef necks for small dogs or chicken necks. The beef necks they are able to crunch up almost as easily as the chicken necks.


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